Did the Vedas get Written around 1200 BC? Says Who?

The ancient Indian history as taught today to our youth is mostly based on a number of distortions and mis-dated chronology that Kosla Vepa, director of the prestigious Indic Studies Foundation based in US, says “were deliberately engineered to create confusion and inferiority complex among Indians” by the  British Raj’s pseudo-historians of 19th century.

It is time for us Indians to reclaim our history from the clutches of people of another race — who have no stake in our civilisation — and set right these malicious distortions. Prof. B.B. Lal (former DG, ASI) in his paper at the International Conference on Indian History, Civilisation and Geopolitics to be held from January 9 at New Delhi, has given several examples of these distortions in Indian history. 

I quote from his paper and bring to you the Deliberate Distortion Number One engineered by that infamous rogue Max Mueller that is still haunting us Indians today:

Way back in the 19th century, the renowned German scholar Max Muller dated the Vedas to circa 1200 BCE. This he did on a very ad-hoc basis. Having accepted that the Sµutra literature could be as old as the sixth century BCE, he assigned a duration of two hundred years to each of the preceding periods, namely those of the Araynakas, Brahmanas and Vedas. Thus, 600+200+200+200= 1200 BCE was his ready-made date for the Vedas.

However, when his contemporary scholars, such as Goldstucker, Whitney and Wilson raised objections to this kind of ad-hocism, he relented and came out with the following statement:

“I have repeatedly dwelt on the merely hypothetical character of the dates, which I have ventured to assign to the first periods of Vedic literature. All I have claimed for them has been that they are minimum dates, and that the literary productions of each period which either still exist or which formerly existed could hardly be accounted for within shorter limits of time than those suggested.”

But when even this explanation-cum-apology did not satisfy the scholars, Max Muller threw up his hands in sheer desperation. His confession, as follows, is worth noting (Max Muller 1890, reprint 1979):

“If now we ask how we can fix the dates of these periods, it is quite clear that we cannot hope to fix a terminum a qua [sic]. Whether the Vedic hymns were composed [in] 1000 or 1500 or 2000 or 3000 BC, no power on earth will ever determine.”

In so far as Max Muller was concerned, the matter was closed from his side. But the greatest irony is that his original fatawa of 1200 BCE, given in the 19th century, is sill ruling the roost in certain quarters even in the 21st century!

The disastrous effect of this fatawa was seen in the 1920s when the Harappan Civilization was discovered and attempts were made to identify its authors. On the basis of the occurrence of several objects of this civilization in deposits of certain already-dated West Asian cultures, it was assigned to the 3rd millennium BCE.

The net result was that the Vedic people were never even considered to have been the authors of the Harappan Civilization, since according to Max Muller.s fatawa the Vedas were only as old 1200 BCE.  Simultaneously, without any sustainable reason the authorship was thrust on the Dravidian-speaking people. And this is how the first major distortion took place in interpreting ancient Indian history!

What kind of a “historian” was Max Mueller? How can a historian make wild guesses without any basis and circulate his day-dreaming into public discourse, fully knowing that regardless of how absurd they are, his words will carry the weight of his name behind them and be taken seriously by people who don’t know any better? This is exactly what happened.

Was it necessary for Mueller to circulate these dates about the Vedas and other literature to others when he himself admitted that no power on earth could determine when these holy books actually got written, “whether in 1000 or 1500 or 2000 or 3000 BC”? It is a crying shame that this date of 1200 BC as origin of the Vedas pulled by Mueller out of his hat is still being taught to Indian school children as a “fact.”

Does anyone in India even know how Muller arrived at this date? He decided that Sutras may not have been written any later than 600 BC (even this date has no basis in fact) and then on a whim he gave a nice packet of 200 years to each sacred literature — namely, Aranyakas, Brahmanas and Vedas — to develop and grow, totalled up the figures and, low and behold, he had 1200 BC as the date of origin of Vedas! Is this some kind of a joke? On top of that, he was fundamentalist in his Biblical belief that nothing in this world could be older than 4000 BC because that is when God created the universe! He wanted to give about 2000 years for the world and human race to evolve since the Creation and thus 2000 BC was his cut-off limit for antiquity of anything.

This is nothing but a criminal act of robbing Indian civilisation of its antiquity. Today, any historian who plays tricks like Mueller did with his dating of the Vedas will be declared a clown and get laughed out of the town by his peers. From dating of the Vedas to his equally absurd theory of Aryan race and Aryan invasion, there is no other “historian” who has spread more rumours about Indian history than this lout.

Coming up Tomorrow

Deliberate Distortion Number Two: The Massacre at Mohenjo-daro

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284 responses to “Did the Vedas get Written around 1200 BC? Says Who?

  1. Pingback: Indianrealist 2009: Max Müller hat dem spirituellen Indien geschadet | Prabhupadanuga Nachrichten

  2. Pingback: bhakti-yoga-net · Indianrealist 2009: Max Müller hat dem spirituellen Indien geschadet

  3. borneveryday

    Hey, not sure how i missed this article of yours.
    Given that Mueller did contort history, i guess he is not the only one to be blamed. At the time he probably did what was good to him personally and to his country. First it bought him to the good books of the british( what with thomas Macaulays idea of changing the indians and stuuf), next it gave a chance to bring the german people under one roof called germany etc.
    But my main grudge is against the goverment, not making a serious effort to get to the truth and remove it from the syllabus teaching ancient history. They still seem to have a hangover of colonialism.
    And the so called intellectuals who turn a blind eye to it just because a right wing political party endorses the view.

  4. rahul

    it would be nice if u could add other evidence or your opinion of when vedas could have been written.

  5. Helo, i dont blame max mueller for his distortions of the facts, he was a german and was serving his own interests. I blame indian government and common indians for not standing up to this distortion, lies, but truth be told, i frankly dont think they care about the ancient history of their land; i see indian youngsters speaking english amongst themselves, trying hard to be “european-ized”. I feel sad because they are lost people, who worship the lifestyle of the westerners without caring or even knowing their own way of life, yes it is a hangover of colonialism for sure. I hope and pray that gradually things may change.

  6. Manish

    The Vedas were originally composed as well as written by ancient vedic people around 6000 B.C according to ancient Sanskrit records of Kings and dynasties.But this history was deliberately destroyed by British by wrong theories like Aryan Invasion and Aryan Migration later which were later falsely backed by wrong archeological evidences like Mohenjodero and Harappa ruins.
    Its a matter of shame how the same kind of wrong history Based on “Mohenjodero” & ” Harappa” identity is still being taught in our school History books even after 60 years of Independence.The pride of hindus has been seriously hurt.I call upon all the Hindus in the world to open there eyes and vote for a Hindu based political party.

    • Deepak

      I’m here for healthy discussion.

      You are completely misleading. All these vedas were composed around 2000- 1500B.C orally and written around in 4th or 5th century A.D. Don’t come up using those Puranas, which are not reality.All these 4 yugas are just rubbish. For example, Krita-Yuga-Average human lifespan was lakhs of years. Its incorrect right.

      Gods like Vishnu, Shiva, Rama and Krishna are just created when they dint even exist. Indus valley civilization(Dravidians) declined with the arrival of Aryans. Also Aryans are from Persia because Vedas and Avesta links up nicely.

      Egyptian and Greek languages are older than Sanskrit. Iliad and Odyssey are older than Ramayana and Mahabharata.

      • VoP

        > Gods like Vishnu, Shiva, Rama and Krishna are just created when they dint even exist <

        Right! But the "dead arab on a stick" existed? Which missionary taught you this? Enjoy!
        http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

        • JGN

          VoP, and wonder of wonder that sandnigger got the features of a white-skinned European!!

        • Deepak

          Come on mate. How come you are changing topic. Don’t worry I’m born Hindu and rarely visits temple because of my parents and never gone to church or mosque.

          I don’t give a damn for any religion.Finally you accepted that all these deities are just made up.

          I recommend you to go through other countries history because a man like you tell India is awesome, place to leave and Indian girls are hot but in reality there are more peaceful countries and other beautiful girls. English girls even though Caucasian but ugly when compared with their counterparts, Swedish -super sexy, Italians and Spaniards are beautiful.

          I’m here for healthy discussion. I always welcome good debate.

          Thank you,
          Deepak

          • Randeep Singh

            Deepak,
            “Iliad and Odyssey are older than Ramayana and Mahabharata”

            LMAO, dude quit smoking weed and get your facts right. You are just making a fool of yourself. Iliad is oldest greek (and the wests) book written around 8th cen BC. Since you are a xtian bigot, do you believe xtianism is older than Hinduism too? LOL. Rather than looking for Hindu Gods/Godesses, try finding evidence for your god Jesus, the Jew. Hahaha

            • Deeya

              @ Deepak…

              Dude! seriously! a non-believer like you commenting about the oldest literature on this planet!! i’m so shocked at ur audacity! Vedas are not of human origin …they have been passed orally since time immemorial through the Guru-Shishya Parampara…and were later compiled by Maharshi Vyas a.k.a. Veda Vyasa or the splitter of the vedas.First get ur facts right and then make them comments.

          • malaydeb

            @Deepak
            If you are looking for a good debate, you are at the wrong place. Here it is a like a mutual appreciation society, where members scratch each other’s back. Any contrary view will be shouted down and abused.

            • cnm

              @cyniacal

              It does not behove an escapist to say so.

              Why did you run away when both of us were about to start a debate on beef eating in the Vedas?. Every time I have asked you for debate you have just run away. Recent example is AIT. Read all the comments exchanged between you and me under” What Sanskrit has meant” by Tasheer. I now challenge you to give answers to the question asked by me On AIT.

              The leftists scholars(?) are good at mutual appreciation not us. Ok?

            • shankar

              Any contrary view should not be shouted down and abused but should be answered properly.

              • Shlok

                @Shanker, sure I have always believed in that. But the likes of Cynical / Malaydeb and others have not. They have made lofty claims, but when countered, have just moved away to the next topic. You should check the tussel between us and them in this and other posts and you will realize who are the ones who have been shying away

            • Shlok

              @Malaydeb / Cynical, Jhoom barabar jhoom sharaabi. Jab daaru gale se utarti hain, to aap apni bakwaas shuru karte ho. Lekin jab hum jawab dete hain, to aap bilkul flat ho jaate ho

      • ss

        “All these vedas were composed around 2000- 1500B.C orally and written around in 4th or 5th century A.D”

        How do you know?

    • nair

      Don’t claim hindutva here also…. think in a matured way… India is a secular country and ask all to vote for HINDU party . what do you mean by HINDU political party? All those corrupted ones at the center? like the BJP, Congress, wat not….

    • krishnan

      Vedas were never written – they are immortal knowledge given to us from Rishis & seers. Lord Brahma is the original compiler of the ever green Vedas. Therefore there is no time limit or time frame given to them. Vedas have always been around & always will be around. It s the science of the Cosmos.

  7. JGN

    Deepak, you deserve a Nobel Prize for your finding: “Indus valley civilization(Dravidians) declined with the arrival of Aryans”. So far all the Historians, Archeologists, Scientists and laymen were trying to ascertain how the Indus Valley civilization got destroyed. Congratulations.

    • ss

      It is futile to debate with Xians — because of the fundamentalism and absolute certainty of their beliefs, they lose the ability of critical thinking that can consider all possibilities and angles to an issue. They are drilled like that by the church and end up becoming like robots.

      • Deepak

        LOL. I am born Hindu. No church has taught me and also never gone to church. See the way of your thinking. This confirms you are not open-minded to think about other civilizations.

        Some adivasis never worship hindu gods you know? I never expect you to know because you thinking everything based on puranas LOL. Some 50,000 years ago people from Africa came to India who are adivasis. 4,000 years ago Aryans came from Iran and composed all these Vedas, Upanisads, Puranas… I’m telling Vedas links up nicely with Avesta.

        Even Egyptian and Greek languages are older than Sanskrit. Have you ever heard of Atlantis?

        • Randeep Singh

          Yeah do you have any proof for what you say or do we just take your word on aryan tourism(from invasion to migration to tourism), Sanskrit, Greek and Ehyptian languages?I always welcome good debate with a rider, it should be based on facts not some twits’ ganja fuelled barking lunacy.

          • JGN

            Deepak, what exactly you want to debate? Of ocurse an elephant cannot write an epic nor a dead jew on a stick could go to the heaven nor a seventh century guy could have gone to the fun-filled Paradise atop a horse.

            • Deepak

              I don’t have any hidden names, but get your facts right. You guys seems to be carrying RSS agenda. Every religion has got its drawbacks.

              As for I now God really never existed just made up by everyone. Egyptians, Greeks, Indians, Mayans, Romans… list is endless. Why it is not universally accepted? We don’t really need god as we need food, shelter and basic things, isn’t it?

              Why you people never talk about casteism, untouchability? Seems to be strange. Just bragging about Vedas which has got flaws.

              • Randeep

                ‘Deepak’, i am here, you were missing? Pls dont leave and deprive us of much fun in numerous posts to come.

                Xtian ‘theology’ Roflol and medieval muslims and their mujrahideen are plain and simple camel humpers with zero IQ.

                example, xtian one first (from skepticsannotatedbible)
                Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes Gen 1:11

                example, mujrahideen(mohammedan) one,
                Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

                Hahaha, even a person living in forest will not stoop to these gutter and moronic levels to prove he is better (which he is) . One has to go past this xtian and mujrims “them and us” “believer and non believer ” hate mongering mindset to evolve as person but your hate will beget more hate and a violent reaction.

                • Randeep

                  We dont claim to have more IQ than others, it is you who is saying it. Here is Jebus and Mo saga, so called god and prophet,

                  God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before — by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don’t eat dust, do they? Gen 3:14, so sayeth Jebus

                  Another lunatic Mohammed Paedophile, not to be left behind, says
                  “Shall we believe as the foolish believe?”
                  According to the Quran, the answer is, yes. To be truly wise you must believe whatever the foolish believe. 2:13

                  LMAO! These are so called gods and prophets. Just imagine the flock, like you, how backward they could be in believing this tripe. Bigots like you are lusting to meet 72 virgins, why stay in vilayat, come to India, make our day and get your wish fulfilled, hatemonger?

        • answertoyouquestion

          @deepak

          present you arguments with instances and references bozzo.
          most probably you have none.

        • VoP

          > I am born Hindu.

          That does not mean you are Hindu in practice. Hinduism or sanatana dharma is a way of life. Unless you live that life you are just another Christian/Islamic fundamentalist with Hindu name – like Arundati SUZZANE Roy, Prannoy JAMES Roy etc., of course, some have hidden Christian names which are never made public and some wear the red dots so big like Margaret Alva and Ambika Soni to fool Hindus!? Get it? NO!

        • Hari

          do you think Atlantis is real? if so, then God help you….

        • som

          @Deepak
          Adivasis are nature worshippers,and there is a long tradition of nature worship existed in Hinduism. We worship mountains, rivers etc.
          In that sense they are Hindus.

          • Indian Realist

            All polytheists are Hindus regardless of what they worship or which race they belong to. As long as they don’t say “our god is true, your god is false,” they are all Hindus. The whole world is divided into two camps: Polytheists and nature worshipers (Hindus by default regardless of race or mode of worship) and monotheists (Xians and Muslims). The monotheists have been waging an unprovoked war over the polytheists since the last 2000 years.

  8. gajanan

    Just see this web site
    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

    Oppenheimer, a leading advocate of this scenario, summarizes it in these words ( reference: Stephen Oppenheimer, The Real Eve, op. cit., p. 152) writes.

    “For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”

    Humans lived in India for the past 50,000 yrs. Just go thru the journey of mankind , you will find it fascinating. After this work , there is very little talk about Aryan invasion etcetra.

    In 1856 , the term Dravidian was coined by R. Caldwell to separate South Indian languages from Sanskrit, even though linguistically Malayalam is the closest language to Sanskrit. [I remember there was a heated debate in parliament about the national language of India in the 60-65's. Many wanted Hindi as a national language. Jyotirmuoy Bosu asked a member " Why Hindi, not that he disliked Hindi , but he wanted concrete reasons" The member replied that because it was very close to Sanskrit. J Bosu , whose likes , you do not get today replied that Malayalam is the closet language to Sanskrit , why not Malayalam as the national language. There was silence and the debate changed track].

    Then came Max Mueller picking up the Caldwell hypothesis. Britain and Germany were close allies then. In 1857 was the Indian mutiny. This basis helped in another divide and conquer policy., which finally led to 1947 partition of India.

    Dr BR Ambedkar opposed tooth and nail this Aryan -Dravidian theory. He was critical of the upper castes who were ready to align with the westerners.

    The advances in science of genetics has made the Aryan Dravidian theory look null and void.

  9. JGN

    Deepak, pl get admitted at NIMHANS before it is too late; otherwise your relatives or friends will get you admitted.

    >>>>>>>>because a man like you tell India is awesome, place to leave and Indian girls are hot but in reality there are more peaceful countries and other beautiful girls>>>>>> who has told you that India is awesome, place to “leave”? Is any one forcing you to stay in India or is it that the white-lizards will not give a visa to a brown nigger like you?

    >>>>>>English girls even though Caucasian but ugly when compared with their counterparts, Swedish -super sexy, Italians and Spaniards are beautiful>>>>>>beauty is not in the object but in the eyes of the beholder. An African negro would like a healthy negro girl than a white-lizard from Europe.

  10. answertoyourquestion

    @deepak

    you say the vedas and avesta are connected.

    one has to be very very smart and a scholar of both avestan persian and vedic sanskrit to ascertain that. i am sure you are not that. because if you were really that sure. you would have given a few instances where the connection between vedas and avesta can be ascertained.

  11. Deepak

    I don’t have any hidden names, but get your facts right. You guys seems to be carrying RSS agenda. Every religion has got its drawbacks.

    As for I now God really never existed just made up by everyone. Egyptians, Greeks, Indians, Mayans, Romans… list is endless. Why it is not universally accepted? We don’t really need god as we need food, shelter and basic things, isn’t it?

    Why you people never talk about casteism, untouchability? Seems to be strange. Just bragging about Vedas which has got flaws.

  12. Agneya

    “Some adivasis never worship hindu gods you know? I never expect you to know because you thinking everything based on puranas LOL. Some 50,000 years ago people from Africa came to India who are adivasis. 4,000 years ago Aryans came from Iran and composed all these Vedas, Upanisads, Puranas… I’m telling Vedas links up nicely with Avesta.”

    Standard Indology lie. Do offer proof to your conclusion that the “Aryans” came from Iran. While you’re doing that, explain to us your definition of the word “Aryan.”

  13. john

    You guys are all shit heads. Talking bullshit, go suck on your mama,s nipple../bunch of Morans.. assholes

  14. john

    If there is any underage boys here I apologize for my comment. It was rude.. I did not know… happy new year

  15. Deeya

    @ Deepak…

    Dude! seriously! a non-believer like you commenting about the oldest literature on this planet!! i’m so shocked at ur audacity! Vedas are not of human origin …they have been passed orally since time immemorial through the Guru-Shishya Parampara…and were later compiled by Maharshi Vyas a.k.a. Veda Vyasa or the splitter of the vedas.First get ur facts right and then make them comments.

  16. can u tell me where is the one and only remaining veda of india present today ?

  17. The Hindu cause is similar to the cause of native and tribal peoples all over the world, like native American and African groups. Even Hindu concerns about cultural encroachment by western religious and commercial interests mirrors those of other traditional peoples who want to preserve their cultures. Yet while the concerns of native peoples have been taken up by the left worldwide, the same concerns of Hindus are styled right-wing or communal, particularly by the left in India!

    • harshita

      I would be a hindu in the classic usage of the word ( the word was a alteration of the word indhu to describe all the indigenous people of this great country called India), by people who came to rape, pillage, loot our then rich country.
      I am a native christian of this land( for the uninitiated, check wikipedia ,if you don’t trust them read in Jawaharlal Nehru’s biography). I have one question to ask u guys, how am i different from other of my indian brothers. Why am i brutalised just because i carry a name that is not from the indian iron age?( no pun/sarcasm intended). I am a foreigner to many of the people i meet in life today,some had the balls to tell me to leave this country.(again no pun/ sarcasm/harm intended)
      Yet a language that came to india as a language of rapists of our female forefathers is our national language, some of my brohters call themselves hindu, and assosciate themselves with hindustan( like pakistan, a mix of a alteration and u know what). I fully support Deepak, not because i am a christian, but because he is the voice of dissent not destruction;while most of you have been voices of destruction.

      And as for the reasons i believe in what he said i will pose two questions here
      When did the system of indian castes originate? an approximate date maybe xth century BC/AD.
      When did hindus, i mean my indian brothers start eating only vegetarian food?

      • charles

        Harshita, native christian is wishful thinking and we dont need no Nehru bozo to tell what is what. You are a convert. You may be an Indian but christianism isn’t. It is not an Indian religion. But that is not the only problem, christianism is renowned world over for dynamiting local culture and religions into extinction. Now, if we, natives like you with a native religion, unlike you, resist this boa constrictor christianisms’ vice like grip, i dont see anything wrong in it? You have a biased opinion and don’t see this as an invasion because you (or your forefathers) lost/bribed with rice and converted to christo cult. We intend to fight it. Even a person living in a very small house will defend his home against anybody hellbent on destroying it.
        You are supposedly very concerned about the loot, genocides and pillage in our country but imo, these are crocodile tears. Christians (Brits) too came for that very purpose, have you forgotten it? Brits left giving Indian churches huge swathes of land for free. Indian land has been given to an alien religion which then was a tiny minority albeit fanatical and zealous. Do you see any injustice. Now the baton has been taken over by the so called native christians with foreign funding and christian ideological hatred of Hindus and Buddhists. North east is already famous for christian terrorism and whackos dreaming of creating christian areas and converting the uncivilized heathens and pagans(read Hindus and Buddhists).
        Voice of destruction was first tom-tommed by christian invaders and we are just replying them in kind. Right now these are only words but wait and watch, the amount of hatred that christians spew out of their holey bible against Sanatan Dharma and its followers will be matched word for word and if need be, anything else too. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

        • harshita

          just answer the question that i pointed out in the post
          we can all decide for ourselves who is foreign in this land

          • som

            harshita,The role of American unholy empire in NATO’s global resource wars,engaging themselves evangelisation and conversions,mushrooming of Christian NGOs that work against Hindu interests,constructing prayer halls and churches near temples,
            acquiring huge lands and properties illegally and finally trying to break India into mutual hostile camps in the name of fake ideology like Dravidian Christianity with the help of illegal flow of foreign money.

        • harshita

          just answer the questions that i pointed out in the post and then
          we can all decide for ourselves who is foreign in this land

        • harshita

          I could not complete the previous post because of a bad internet connection and sorry for it appearing twice.
          I was not shedding any tears, neither am i sad,because what you do, is your decision. I completely respect every bit of it. I respect your right to disagree with me, but i was saddened when you said i was corrupt.
          And for your information, the same problems that you faced during european rule were faced by my forefathers too. They tried to do the same things that were meted to my siblings elsewhere in India.
          That, my friend unites us all into one fraternity in this cause of keeping our cultures intact. And my friend you should not doubt our loyalty to the cause and we would not take even a peanut from your oppressors to do something against you, until….(please don’t fill the blanks with something that gives rise to hate in your minds). I swear for this in the name of Holy God himself.
          I was just highlighting the irony that while we refuse to accept a religion here for approximately 1949 years,we have readily accepted a language and a name that is maybe…..(again don’t fill the blanks with something that gives rise to hate in your minds). Also i would like to know when a native guy, following a native religion, characterized by two things that i mentioned (caste system, “untouchability” and “vegitarianism”)(again no pun/sarcasm/hate/harm intended ) originated in our land.

          • charles

            Harshita, no point discussing with you since you are biased against Hindus and Hinduism. All you are doing is regurgitating bible venom against Hindus which showcases every negative stereotype possible of Hinduism. But as written earlier, sow hate and i promise, you will reap hate 2x. Christianism discriminatory attitude wont tolerated now and those who condone and read the hate laden bible are no friends of ours.

            Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property. Ex 23:24
            Stay away from those who worship a different god. Ex 23:32

          • singh

            The Ravidas Mandir in Haiderabad, Sindh,Pakistan is still safe, as is the Balmiki temple, because the community is needed for the services it provides. This is how, our hindu society survived even through the 1000 years of muslim rule.. every jathi had expertise in their profession, which invading muslims lacked.. they might have occuped the political structure, but they need a society to rule.. the society will function, only if all jathis did their profession… Most jathis offered only two choices.. either to leave enmasse, or to die.. so the muslim kings could not do much about these jathis…… since jathis were self-organised and independant, they had the confidence to withstand against muslim kings.. UNFORTUNATELY, the Hindutva people today, had been advocating destruction of jaathi.. As a result, our society had lost all those skill sets, which continued for 1000s of years..

            • ravi

              न कौशल्या, कैकेयी ना ही कुंती हुई सती
              गाजी न आये जब तक, ज़रूरत नहीं पड़ी
              अल्लाह के बन्दों के हरम के ख़याल से
              आग की बाहों में जा कूदी पद्मावती

          • jay

            Barely seven years after Prof. B B Lal penned “The Sarasvati Flows On: The Continuity of Indian Culture” (2002)[ also at Nausharo in pre-partition India (now Pakistan), French excavator Jean-Francois Jarrige], the defiantly-in-denial UPA has been forced to admit the existence of the Pre Harappan civilization- the Vaidic Saraswati Civilisation-the oldest civilisation of India, supporting this bold hypothesis is powerful evidence from hydrology, geology, literature, archaeology and radiocarbon dating, in response to a parliamentary question, the government revealed that a study by scientists of ISRO, Jodhpur, and the Rajasthan Government’s Ground Water Department has found irrefutable evidence of palaeo-channels and archaeological sites of pre-Harappan, Harappan and post-Harappan ages, indicating the existence of a mighty river matching descriptions of the Saraswati in Vedic literature.
            But who were these Vedic people ?
            Were they Aryan invaders as we were taught in school, or indigenous ancestors whose achievements were ‘stolen’ by ascribing them to so-called Aryans, a people who have left no traces of like achievements in any of the lands from where they supposedly descended upon the Indian plains?
            This era also created the ploughshare and spoked wheel, the tandoor and roti, chulha and chapatti, and pots and pans and other vessels of daily use.
            But, who were these Vedic people ?
            There was a rich industry in bead-making, shell, ivory-working, mainly copper and bronze, though gold and silver ornaments had also arrived.
            Truly a Golden Age. The only thing missing is the inscrutable script, surely a precursor to Brahmi, the language that developed later!
            This is augmented by the famous limestone statuette of the Mohenjo-daro priest-king, with his eyes introvert and eyelids half-closed, a meditative form later associated with Buddhist tradition, especially in Tibet and China.
            Yet this form of dhyana is mentioned in the Bhagvadgita (ch. 6, verse 13) which states that the gaze should be fixed on the tip of the nose!
            Town planning, especially given the chaos in our cities today, will remain ancient India’s greatest contribution to civilisation. Be it Kalibangan, or Sisupalgarh near Bhubaneshwar, Orissa, the grid pattern with streets running north-south and east-west was the rage. This, it is pertinent, was an era in which Egypt or Mesopotamia (the West’s favourite ‘cradle’ of civilisation) had no notion of such town planning – which must be conceded was original to India. To cap it all, there were covered drains and manholes for discharge of sullage.
            Bricks were kiln-fired, and there was bonding, with bricks laid out in alternate courses – length-wise and breadth-wise – for strong walls, way back in the third millennium BCE. And clay floors were soled with fragments of terracotta nodules and large pieces of charcoal – to absorb moisture, prevent dampness travelling up the walls, and inhibiting termites!
            But, who were these Vedic people ?
            It is now conclusively established that there was no Aryan Invasion, or even Migration (the current theory). What does remain, however, is a West-led mental resistance to accepting the indigenous origins of the Vedic (Hindu) religion, culture, and civilisation.

          • jay

            @harshita,
            The proceedings of the Tribunal were conducted under the banner of Forum for Social Justice. The Tribunal comprised of eminent people like former DG of Punjab Police Shri KPS Gill, senior writer Bhavdeep Kang, former IPS Shri PC Dogra, Air Marshal (retd) Shri RS Bedi, Swami Shantatmananda, Justice (retd) Shri Suresh Soni, Justice (retd) Shri BK Gupta, Justice (retd) Shri DS Tewatia, former Ambassador Shri Prabhat Shukla, director of Centre for Policy Studies Dr JK Bajaj, Smt Usha Goel, Shri Vinod Bawari, Shri Shaurya Doval and Col. (retd) Shri PK Panda. The Tribunal, after preparing a detailed report, will present it the Union Minister of Tribal Affairs, different Commissions and authorities with a memorandum within one month.
            Gadadhar Pradhan from Kandhmal district of Orissa informed the Tribunal how the land of his family members and other villagers was forcibly garbed by the Christians. Nandini Pradhan from same Kandhmal district pointed out that Christians intimidate the women against using Hindu symbols like bindi, sindoor, etc. They even torture the Hindu farmers visiting the market to sell their agriculture produces. The local administration do not listen to such complaints of the people and many times they even support the church people.
            Pawitra Kanhal, who is a teacher in Kandhmal district of Orissa explained how he was framed in a false case by the missionaries and he had to remain in jail for 50 days. His only crime was that he had opposed the cow slaughter. Passing Golmai from Imphal said he was himself allured to get married with a beautiful and working Christian girl if I became a Christian, but he refused. He said 64 villages in his region are facing direct onslaughts from the missionaries and the identity and traditions of the Hindus are in danger in the entire region. Bhaikabhai Pawar from the Dangs, Gujarat, informed the Tribunal how the gochar land of his village was garbed for constructing a church. “Once a group of church people caught me and intimidated to stop doing bhajan keertan in the region. They set me free with the threat to face dire consequences if I did not stop doing bhajan keertan. They also create troubles in the celebration of Hindu festivals, he said pointing out that over 200 of the total 311 villages in his region have now churches.
            Sunil from Golaghat (North East) informed how he was converted into Christianity for just Rs 500 and when he returned Hinduism after sometime he was forced to return the amount with interest. Rameshwar Rathia from Korba district of Chhattisgarh said church-supported people come from Jharkhand side and forcefully settle on the vacant land of their village. He said the land that they once occupy is not vacant at any cost. Jamdari Reang who was forced to leave Mizoram with his family some years back and now lives in Tripura, informed how all his family members converted into Christianity but he refused despite repeated pressure. He pointed out that with the change of religion the thinking of the entire family changed towards him and Hindu customs.
            In their testimonies these Vanvasis clearly stated that evangelical Christian missionaries are forcing them to convert into their religion. They clearly stated that there was an increase in the nexus between Maoists and these Evangelist forces and the leaders.
            After the testimony before the Tribunal for two days, these Vanvasis who had come from more than 14 states of the country, assembled at Jantar Mantar on September 6 to register their protest against various challenges posing a threat to their traditional life. They said evangelical missionaries are very much involved in these kinds of activities. In the demonstration, five Members of Parliament (MPs) also participated and lent their support to the demands raised by the Vanvasis. The MPs who attended the demonstration were Smt Jyoti Dhurve from Madhya Pradesh, Shri Murali Lal from Chhattisgarh, Shri Kanjibhai Patel from Gujarat and Shri Sudarshan Bhagat from Jharkhand. They all assured them to raise the issues of atrocities on Vanvasis in the Parliament and at other important forums.
            Earlier, inaugurating the proceedings of the Tribuanl on September 5, former DG of Punjab Police Shri KPS Gill said the Vanvasis have been facing a threat to their culture, economy and way of life since the British period and it must stop now.

            President of the Forum for Social Justice Shri PC Dogra said the Vanvasis are in grave danger and it is our duty to help our Vanvasi brothers and sisters living in remote areas.

      • hindu boy

        According to Gospel For Asia-a recent issue of the Texas-based magazine:
        “The Indian sub-continent with one billion people, is a living example of what happens when Satan rules the entire culture… India is one vast purgatory in which millions of people …. are literally living a cosmic lie! Could Satan have devised a more perfect system for causing misery?”

        But such attitudes are nothing new, of course. Christians have waged such ‘spiritual warfare’ against their enemies for centuries, and with the same kind of language.
        There are two important points here. First, we must not assume that the ‘developed’ West is free from wilful ignorance. Indeed, wilful ignorance is often a very useful weapon. We need enemies, and, as religious people, we need demons. The utility of Islamophobia is a case in point.Besides, there’s a useful role for such bigotry within the system: as a foil for the liberal powerful to prove their liberal credentials.
        And ‘spiritual warfare’, for the evangelical Christian movement, is not just a matter of prayers and metaphor: it is also, very decisively, a matter of ‘virtuous’ troops, tanks, and drones.

      • ravi

        @harshita,
        An Indian tragedy: Aryan invasion theory:
        Scientists had long ago dismissed the idea of the Aryan race
        All this makes abundantly clear that theories based on the Aryan myth are modern European creations that have little to do with ancient India. The word Arya appears for the first time in the Rig Veda, India’s oldest text. Hitler did not invent it. The idea of Aryans as a superior race was already in the air— in Europe, not India.
        An African tragedy: Tutsi invasion theory
        When we look at the map of middle Africa, we see two little countries named Rwanda and Burundi, bordering on Zaire (or the Democratic Republic of Congo). As reported in the Western media, these countries are inhabited by two supposedly different ethnic groups, the so-called Hutus and Tutsis. The ethnic composition of these two countries is as follows.
        Rwanda: Hutu 84%, Tutsi 15%, Twa (Pygmies) 1%
        Burundi: Hutu 85%, Tutsi 14%, Twa 1%
        In other words, their compositions hardly differ at all. But according to Western anthropologists, mainly colonial bureaucrats and missionaries, the Tutsi are supposed to be a Hamitic people, a race that was often intermixed with the whiter races of the North, notably from Ethiopia and Egypt, which in their turn were intermixed with some West Asiatic people, mainly the Hittites, by repeated invasions from the North. These people, the Tutsis, are supposed to have arrived from the North and not native to Rwanda.
        This in essence is the Tutsi invasion theory, the African version of the Aryan invasion theory. The similarities are startling, even to the extent of the Dravidians in India being preceded by earlier inhabitants, the aborigines (the so-called adi-vasis), who have their African counterpart in the Pygmies. So we have the African Pygmy-Hutu-Tutsi sequence corresponding to the Indian aborigines-Dravidian-Aryan scheme.
        As with the Aryan theories and their various offshoots, this Tutsi-Hutu division has no factual basis. They speak the same language, have a long history of intermarriage and have many cultural characteristics in common. Differences are regional rather than racial, which they were not aware of until the Europeans made it part of their politics and propaganda.
        The explosion came following independence form colonial rule. Repeated violence after independence fueled this hatred driven by this supposed ethnic difference and the concocted history of the Tutsi invasion and oppression. Some 2.5 million people were massacred in this fratricidal horror of wars and genocides.
        Why did India not go the way of Rwanda-Burundi? Not for lack of trying but because the cultural foundation of Hinduism proved too strong. It defeated the designs of politicians and propagandists masquerading as scholars. It is no coincidence that Rwanda and Burundi had been converted to Christianity, preparing the ground for sectarian conflict. Several church figures, including priests and nuns have been found guilty of complicity in the Tutsi massacres. As in India, Christianity was a colonial tool and missionaries little more than imperial agents.

      • Akhil

        @ harshita
        The two questions you posted is reason enough to believe there was no aryan invasion.
        1. It is much more sensible for the agrarian civilized settlers to be vegans than the barbarian nomadic tribe of “aryans”.
        2.How a tribe that is always into war can have enough time to compose such a spiritual and complex thing as the vedas is beyond me; forget devising the various ways to memorize and recite them.
        As for why hindi is our official language (not the national language) i have no answer but say that it may be out of public interest with hindi being the largest spoken language in india.

        @deepak
        Why couldn’t it be the other way around.Iranians may be indians who colonized iran and then further went to europe.
        That could explain the similarities

      • John

        @harshita, The Bhagavad Gita, Tamil classics and even Sanskrit originated after Christ and under the influence of Christianity.
        A 2005 conference in New York had the theme, “International Conference on the History of Early Christianity in India.” Senator Hillary Clinton greeted it with the message:

        “I am confident that the breadth of resources presented during the conference will shed light on the impact of Christianity on medieval and classical India and its effects on the cultural and political climate of India….”
        Harvest Indian souls PLEASE.

        • @John,

          You must be a fuckin retard. Sanskrit easily goes back to
          at least 3000 BC, long before Christianity was even born.
          The existence of the Hindu Rig-Veda is proof of that.

          As for the Bhagavad Gita and Tamil classics, they were certainly
          not influenced by Christianity. What a joke!
          The Bhagavad Gita and the Tamil classics don’t even refer to
          Jesus or Christianity. On the other hand, they refer to Hindu
          gods like Indra or Vishnu. Not a word about Jesus.

          There was no such thing as medieval Christianity worth the name
          in India. Saint Thomas never visited India, a fact admitted even
          by the Pope.

          Sorry to burst your bubble, but that 2005 conference is a hoax.
          This has been pointed out by Rajiv Malhotra in one of his books,
          “Breaking India: Western intervention in Dalit-Dravidian fault lines”.

          Christians are just jealous that Hinduism has an originality of its
          own and is way older than Christianity.

          It is Christianity that is a mish-mash of earlier pagan mythologies.
          Jesus is just a copy of the pagan God Horus. look it up.

      • Sindhus

        @Harshita:
        Answers to your questions:
        1. Caste system was introduced in India by the Britishers, so the date could be after 1600 a.d. because they wanted to define India according to their own knowledge of society.

        Before that Indian people were usually asked about their jaati (heritage) which was strictly based on profession. So a person who was born a Khstariya but working as a merchant usually was called vaishya. This was again due to the common trend of father passing the knowledge and skill to his son/daughter as so on. Each jati had its own importance and respect. Slowly some caste/jati-less groups were formed (comprising mostly criminals) who were not allowed to work in the society and were given places away from the villages/cities to live and work. Unfortunately, this system became more and more rigid with time as the powerful became more powerful and the ignorant started drawing lines. It should be noted that such divisions were much worse in other countries in the olden times, where divisions were much bolder and slavery was extremely common and divisions much more rigid and based on color, money, physical strength and gender.

        Much more remains to be said..but you can research more on these lines to know more. Besides, one school of thought says that in ancient India, people considered everyone born as shudras and had to become brahmin in one’s lifetime….but this is also complex and requiers much space.

        2. About vegetarianism: A significant % of Hindus eat non-veg, minus the prohibited beef and pork (and also chicken).

      • Sindhus

        @Harshita:

        “how am i different from other of my indian brothers. Why am i brutalised just because i carry a name that is not from the indian iron age?( no pun/sarcasm intended). I am a foreigner to many of the people i meet in life today,some had the balls to tell me to leave this country.(again no pun/ sarcasm/harm intended)”

        But your name is very much a Hindu name.

        And, please mention why were you brutalized and why?

  18. harshita

    Sir charles when was i disrespectful(or venomous)of the great religion that you belong to? Did i ever insult or be disrespectful of any of the 33 crore (forgive me if the number is wrong) Gods? Did i insult any of the great epics of this land? Did i speak a word against your honorable leaders? Can you point out one instance in my previous posts that was disrespectful to any of the living species in this planet (except maybe for a race that is white in skin colour that thinks that their race is the most supreme and everything else should be assimilated into them)?
    Don’t read out passages from a book that you don’t comprehend(no pun/sarcasm/insult/hatred/harm intended just the literal meaning intended to be the message).
    It is true that the book you read was from the jewish book called old testament. The same bible (in later chapters )says that a few wordings of that text can be misinterpreted and explains them in great detail how to correctly understand the message.
    I am not understanding what you are saying,Charles as in one post you insulted me about being corrupt,being an animal (crocodile), and finally as a “hate-monger”. I am sticking to the questions that i had asked before
    I am asking you just one thing You hate me because just because we did not accept the name given to all indians by some thieves, bandits, plunderers, fuckers and rapists from Central Asia?
    And why have you not yet answered any of the two questions i posed earlier?(no sarcasm/pun/insult/harm intended). Answer them and we can have a meaningful debate going.

    • ravi

      @singh,You are right. In the year 2001, there were 826 terrorist attacks in Tripura in which 405 persons were killed and 481 cases of kidnapping by the rebels. The case of Jamatiya tribals provides a telling example. These tribals have strong spiritual leaders and a network of social service organizations headed by their religious leaders. These indigenous sects are neither exclusive nor expansionist. The Baptist Church has always failed miserably in its conversion efforts with regard to this well-knit community.
      Hence, it is no wonder that the NLFT has made Jamatiya institutions and their religious leaders the targets of their attacks. In the August of 2000, religious leaders of the Jamatiya community like Jaulushmoni Jamatiya and Shanit Kumar Tripura were killed by the NLFT, and Jamatiya families were uprooted from their homelands and made refugees.
      The death threats issued by the NLFT to the inmates of these institutions have already forced the closure of 11 Jamatiya institutions like schools and orphanages, set up by the slain religious leaders in various parts of Tripura.

      • ravi

        The purported objective of the NLFT is to establish an ‘independent’ Tripura through an armed struggle following the liberation from ‘Indian neo- colonialism and imperialism’ and furtherance of a ‘distinct and independent identity’

    • Bhushan

      @Harshita: Just curious. Who wrote the 1st and the 2nd testaments? What about 3rd, 4th, etc…are they present?

      • Jaimon Joseph

        LHM

        Maybe this is a trick question :) Maybe not. But I’ll give this a shot.

        I’m not an expert. But I was trying to read up on this yesterday night. The Old Testament – reads like a repository of ancient traditions and beliefs. The Book of Isaiah might have been written around the 8th or 9th century before Christ – you’ll have to cross check this with someone more knowledgeable. But I’m not sure when the Book of Genesis or the five books of the law of Moses were written – Jewish Scholars should have research on that.

        Though there is a chance that the knowledge and traditions in those books might have been passed on from centuries before. For example, the story of the flood that destroyed the world in Genesis (Noah) – I read one article on the web that drew a parallel to a similar belief in the Sumerian Civilization of Mesopotamia – that was dated to some 4000 years before Christ. That civilization had no Jewish beliefs – but the story of the flood has similarities. Again – there must have been serious research on this by Judaic and Christian scholars – they are better people to check with.

        I have no data on the dates of the Egyptian civilization. All I know is that the Jewish nation was enslaved by Egypt for centuries. I’m making a lay persons assumption that this was some centuries AFTER the pyramids were built – because the Old Testament does not seem to talk about them – they might already have been covered by sand by that time – again not sure – needs tonnes more of proper research – I’ve only speed read through web pages right now – and there’s a lot of misleading information on many sites.

        Around 300 years before Christ, Alexander had invaded and subdued Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. And Greek had become a popular trading language just like English is today. That was when the Jewish Old Testament was first translated into Greek – the then King of Greece (Ptolemy 2?) wanted a copy of his subjects religion and law for his library in Egypt. This must have been many years after Socrates. Plato must have been alive during the time of the translation. And Aristotle, I think, being a student of Plato, must have come later.

        Again – All this is purely reading on Wikipedia and similar sites – I haven’t done any academic, historical studies. I’d urge you guys to check for yourselves – and if you want to be really sure, with a reputed library or Jewish/Christian scholars.

        Jaimon Joseph

  19. charles

    “You hate me because just because we did not accept the name given to all indians by some thieves, bandits, plunderers, fuckers and rapists from Central Asia?”
    How can you hate/disrespect a person who has no respect/pride to start with? I pity you. You have no problem taking a name from an alien Arabian invading cult (xtian) but huff and puff at Asian ones. Why? No wonder, you sound so christiany (hypocrite) and illogical. Fix yourself and don’t blame others for your ignorance and shortcomings.

    We dont have to go too far, here is a quick history lesson from this blog only,
    The Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India
    http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/the-myth-of-the-aryan-invasion-of-india/

    Xtian perfidy
    http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/foreign-hand-christian-bodies-top-donors-receivers/
    http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/congress-mp-calls-baba-ramdev-bloody-indian-dog/
    http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/christian-mafia-in-indian-media/

  20. JGN

    harshita, it seems that you are a new convert. So you are eager to prove that you have kicked off something really bad and accepted a faith that is superior to all other faiths in the world.

    What makes you pose questions like >>>>>>>>>I am asking you just one thing You hate me because just because we did not accept the name given to all indians by some thieves, bandits, plunderers, fuckers and rapists from Central Asia?>>>>>>>>>>it this not proof enough that you consider all natives of India (or our ancestors) as “thieves, bandits, plunderers, fuckers and rapists “??? May be you have accepted Christianity but you have not learnt the nuances of the Religion.

    “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”—Matthew 19:19 …………..where is that “love” in any of the messages posted by you?

  21. Shane Musai

    The Vedas was written around the same time Kaliyog started which was around the same time Krishna left earth….
    it was calculated to be on the 18th Of Feb, 3114 BCE……..
    For those who are interested, please join the group “Proud to be a Hindu On Facebook”…..Its profile picture is one with the Hindu Trinity ‘Bramha , Vishnu and MahaShiva’ thank you

    Hare Krishna…

  22. Bibhuti

    Even Millions of Max Muller takes birth in this world, or millions of Christina Missionaries may open in this land they can’t wipe Hindutwa from this world.
    Vedas was written long long years ago when there was no other religion….then the people were either Hindus or some other category with some believe system…..later most of the religious text from Vedas got copied, edited, and published with different names. I know it’s difficult for non-Hindu to accept that his/her religion is copy version of something, but that is the fact.

    Someone may try his best to change the Vedic texts, but one day God will recover and establish it for the wellness of the World!… Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya…..

    Vedanta teaches the law of Cause and Effect (Karmic philosophy), whatever you do you will pay for it. For example Ghazni looted this land many times, destroyed Samantha temple and stole all wealth to Afghan, no you see the condition of Afghan in few 100 years….the law of cause and effect…Today there are many missionaries in India are funded to convert the Hindus, and to kill Hindu spiritual leaders…again this is the fund which was stolen from this land some years ago….so those nations will have to pay for it…you can’t strengthen your spiritual or religious values by killing others, by hating others values, or by diverting people at any cost….it’s the matter of time….we believe in re-birth and we will see one day…

  23. Prakash Viswanathan

    Deepak
    I thought you wanted to have a good debate, but your knowledge in this subject is so little, may be its better to watch and do some research before you claim things our of norm. You are claiming that Indus Valley civilization is dravidian and then you are claiming Aryans came from Persia and I guess you are also claiming Vedas are written by Aryans.
    These are huge claims buddy and none of these are proven. You are not here for a good debate you are here to piss off people like me who wants to learn more about this subject

  24. Akhil

    @ harshita
    The two questions you posted is reason enough to believe there was no aryan invasion.
    1. It is much more sensible for the agrarian civilized settlers to be vegans than the barbarian nomadic tribe of “aryans”.
    2.How a tribe that is always into war can have enough time to compose such a spiritual and complex thing as the vedas is beyond me; forget devising the various ways to memorize and recite them.
    As for why hindi is our official language (not the national language) i have no answer but say that it may be out of public interest with hindi being the largest spoken language in india.

    @deepak
    Why couldn’t it be the other way around.Iranians may be indians who colonized iran and then further went to europe.
    That could explain the similarities :)

  25. Anonymous

    He was right we r fool n for further knowledge Ny body can contact bramhkumaris who claim that our soul plays the same part after every 5000 yrs

  26. Anand

    I sort of agree with you. See I believe that what happened was that yes thier were indo european tribes orignating in central Asia but the so called invasions were just migrations in the 3rd mellenia like said in Vedas to the dryup of saraswati. So I believe in India many people in the north and south have protoindo European not indo European genes and so it fits with the Vedas because I honestly think the Vedas were written down in the 5th or 6th mellenia bc maybe even the 7th that was a mix and adoption of the indigenous Indian beliefs with the migratory nomads who settled down.

    • @Anand,

      You are wrong about Aryans migrating to India.
      There is no evidence for this. Vedas say no such thing
      about Aryans migrating to India. You have never read the Vedas
      so you are ignorant of what they actually do show.

      According to the Vedas themselves, particularly the Rig-Veda,
      there were a series of emigrations of Indian tribes from India
      towards the West, not towards India.

  27. I personally Believe that post, “Did the Vedas get Written around 1200 BC?
    Says Who? | Indian Realist” http://bilingues.org was
    indeed perfect! I personallycan’t agree along with u more! At last looks like Iidentified a website really worth browsing. Thanks, Marcus

  28. Jaimon Joseph

    LHM

    I read everything here with interest. I did think you guys were unfair to Harshita – she was simply asking a few questions with civility, though she did loose her temper somewhere on her second post.

    I have a question. Beyond the excitement of how old the Vedas actually are – I guess that question will be settled by scientists and historians sooner or later. My question is – I’ve been led to believe the Vedas give praise to ONE almighty God. How did that tradition slowly fan out to the 33 million gods in Hinduism today? I am asking to understand – I am on the same journey that you are – so help me out if you can.

    I’m also confused why the Shaivite and Vaishnavite sects started fighting against each other – there was major bloodshed and regime change down south – I’ve read about that. Also, I’ve read allusions to the Agama Shastras, the Shramana tradition and other divergent beliefs in Hinduism. Can anyone shed light on these trends? No abuse please – it helps no one. Let’s talk.

    Jaimon Joseph

    • Indian Realist

      The Hindu sages through deep meditation stumbled upon the fact that there is a supreme energy prevailing in this universe (which people call God) and it manifests itself in many ways. The millions of Hindu gods are manifestations of the same primordial force that makes the functioning of this universe possible. So all this “our god is true, your god is false is infantile and laughable arguments to Hindus. There is a God and people worship it in different ways. Also, there was no “bloodshed” or wars between Shiva and Vishnu followers in South India — it is propaganda of communist historians.

    • @jaimon Joseph,

      The Vedas recognize many gods, such as Indra, Varuna, Mitra,
      Agni ect ect. The Vedas also assert that God is essentially one also.
      This may seem like a contradiction but is not so in reality.

      The one universal God is capable of taking innumerable forms and
      names, what you would call “gods”. However in essence, these
      various gods are simply different manifestations of the one God
      itself. So there is no contradiction.

      This is a concept unique to the Hindu way of understanding God.
      However, there is a catch. The Hindu Brahman/God is a loving
      and tolerant being, capable of being worshipped in many legitimate
      ways rooted within the Hindu religion and ethos.

      That does not mean that we Hindus recognize Jesus or Allah as
      an expression of Brahman like we do with Indra, Krishna, Rama ect.
      This is because the Biblical God and the Islamic Allah don’t resemble
      the Hindu Brahman at all. The Semitic gods are intolerant and
      cruel in nature, unlike Hindu Brahman. They are inhuman,
      and hate non-believers, and insist that they are the only god
      that should be worshipped, to the exclusion of other divinities.
      This shows the inherent falsehood of the Semitic creeds.

    • @Jaimon Joseph,

      About the dating of the Vedas, the Vedas can be tentatively dated
      to somewhere between 3500 BC-1400 BC, scientifically speaking.

      Take a look at this book by Shrikant Talageri:

      The Rig-Veda and Avesta; The Final Evidence

    • abhi

      @joseph

      having belief in many/million gods is not crime against god. (supreme) god will not get offended if it is worshipped in different ways.
      the supreme god in vedas is defined as neti-neti. from my understanding it means god is everything and god is also nothing. (google search for info)
      as for 330 million gods , from my perspective it is wrong . i would say it is 33xkoti , ,koti means a large number and not a specific number like 10million. koti was equated to 10million when number system was standardised in india. so it is 33 basic characters/gunas of gods.

    • @Joseph:

      Watch this movie “Da Vinci Code” you will understand how people make a God of a human being and forced on people, and create religions to safeguard political interests.

      It is very good movie, but I saw it only last week. It adds a new dimension to Christianity “Only one God, and that is Jesus”…..and that Jesus as God is the creation of Constantine!

      Govind P

  29. Anup

    This deepak guy seems to be some non-hindu assh*le who wants to divert our intelligent discussion to some bullshit conversation. Pay no heed to such assh*les. (I think he’s a paki with a false name)
    And for your kind information deepak, We’re talking about Vedas here. Which is the platform for Hinduism. How the fu*k is it an RSS agenda! RSS is aligned towards Hindutva but works for the welfare of INDIANS unlike the other so-called nationalist organisations which work for only the people from their castes n religions!
    And yeah, deepak is an expert in copying and pasting the same rant over and over again in each argument. You sir, are a certified idiot.

  30. Anup

    Also, There’s this scholar Dr. P. V. Vartak who has done intensive research on the vedas and has published papers of his studies. I’d recommend you to take a look at his research here http://www.drpvvartak.com/research.asp

  31. Sergey Teleguin

    Atlantis – Vedic Tripura. Ultima thule in Popol Vuh: http://www.scribd.com/telegin2005

  32. sunil

    hi nice discussion

  33. sunil

    Summary
    A 2001 examination of male Y-DNA by Indian and American scientists [which also incidentally includes Toomas Kivisild as one of the authors] indicated that higher castes are genetically closer to West Eurasians than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are similar to other Asians. These results indicate that at some point male West Eurasians provided a significant genetic input into the higher castes, a result which supports the notion that the caste system was an attempt by these predominantly male arrivals to keep themselves separate from the native population. (http://jorde-lab.genetics.utah.edu/elibrary/Bamshad_2001a.pdf)

  34. sunil

    The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a book on the origin of Aryans by Lokmanya Bâl Gangâdhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India during 1880 to 1920. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of Europe and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory Tilak has presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars with interpretations of the contents in detail.
    The book was written at the end of 1898, but was first published in March 1903 in Pune.

    • nitha

      @sunil
      Barely seven years after Prof. B B Lal penned “The Sarasvati Flows On: The Continuity of Indian Culture” (2002)[ also at Nausharo in pre-partition India (now Pakistan), French excavator Jean-Francois Jarrige], the defiantly-in-denial UPA has been forced to admit the existence of the Pre Harappan civilization- the Vaidic Saraswati Civilisation-the oldest civilisation of India, supporting this bold hypothesis is powerful evidence from hydrology, geology, literature, archaeology and radiocarbon dating, in response to a parliamentary question, the government revealed that a study by scientists of ISRO, Jodhpur, and the Rajasthan Government’s Ground Water Department has found irrefutable evidence of palaeo-channels and archaeological sites of pre-Harappan, Harappan and post-Harappan ages, indicating the existence of a mighty river matching descriptions of the Saraswati in Vedic literature.
      But who were these Vedic people ?
      Were they Aryan invaders as we were taught in school, or indigenous ancestors whose achievements were ‘stolen’ by ascribing them to so-called Aryans, a people who have left no traces of like achievements in any of the lands from where they supposedly descended upon the Indian plains?
      This era also created the ploughshare and spoked wheel, the tandoor and roti, chulha and chapatti, and pots and pans and other vessels of daily use.
      But, who were these Vedic people ?
      There was a rich industry in bead-making, shell, ivory-working, mainly copper and bronze, though gold and silver ornaments had also arrived.
      Truly a Golden Age. The only thing missing is the inscrutable script, surely a precursor to Brahmi, the language that developed later!
      This is augmented by the famous limestone statuette of the Mohenjo-daro priest-king, with his eyes introvert and eyelids half-closed, a meditative form later associated with Buddhist tradition, especially in Tibet and China.
      Yet this form of dhyana is mentioned in the Bhagvadgita (ch. 6, verse 13) which states that the gaze should be fixed on the tip of the nose!
      Town planning, especially given the chaos in our cities today, will remain ancient India’s greatest contribution to civilisation. Be it Kalibangan, or Sisupalgarh near Bhubaneshwar, Orissa, the grid pattern with streets running north-south and east-west was the rage. This, it is pertinent, was an era in which Egypt or Mesopotamia (the West’s favourite ‘cradle’ of civilisation) had no notion of such town planning – which must be conceded was original to India. To cap it all, there were covered drains and manholes for discharge of sullage.
      Bricks were kiln-fired, and there was bonding, with bricks laid out in alternate courses – length-wise and breadth-wise – for strong walls, way back in the third millennium BCE. And clay floors were soled with fragments of terracotta nodules and large pieces of charcoal – to absorb moisture, prevent dampness travelling up the walls, and inhibiting termites!
      But, who were these Vedic people ?
      It is now conclusively established that there was no Aryan Invasion, or even Migration (the current theory). What does remain, however, is a West-led mental resistance to accepting the indigenous origins of the Vedic (Hindu) religion, culture, and civilisation.

    • nitha

      @sunil
      • An Indian tragedy: Aryan invasion theory:
      Scientists had long ago dismissed the idea of the Aryan race .
      All this makes abundantly clear that theories based on the Aryan myth are modern European creations that have little to do with ancient India. The word Arya appears for the first time in the Rig Veda, India’s oldest text. Hitler did not invent it. The idea of Aryans as a superior race was already in the air— in Europe, not India.
      • An African tragedy: Tutsi invasion theory:
      When we look at the map of middle Africa, we see two little countries named Rwanda and Burundi, bordering on Zaire (or the Democratic Republic of Congo). As reported in the Western media, these countries are inhabited by two supposedly different ethnic groups, the so-called Hutus and Tutsis. The ethnic composition of these two countries is as follows.
      Rwanda: Hutu 84%, Tutsi 15%, Twa (Pygmies) 1%
      Burundi: Hutu 85%, Tutsi 14%, Twa 1%
      In other words, their compositions hardly differ at all. But according to Western anthropologists, mainly colonial bureaucrats and missionaries, the Tutsi are supposed to be a Hamitic people, a race that was often intermixed with the whiter races of the North, notably from Ethiopia and Egypt, which in their turn were intermixed with some West Asiatic people, mainly the Hittites, by repeated invasions from the North. These people, the Tutsis, are supposed to have arrived from the North and not native to Rwanda.
      This in essence is the Tutsi invasion theory, the African version of the Aryan invasion theory. The similarities are startling, even to the extent of the Dravidians in India being preceded by earlier inhabitants, the aborigines (the so-called adi-vasis), who have their African counterpart in the Pygmies. So we have the African Pygmy-Hutu-Tutsi sequence corresponding to the Indian aborigines-Dravidian-Aryan scheme.
      As with the Aryan theories and their various offshoots, this Tutsi-Hutu division has no factual basis. They speak the same language, have a long history of intermarriage and have many cultural characteristics in common. Differences are regional rather than racial, which they were not aware of until the Europeans made it part of their politics and propaganda.
      The explosion came following independence form colonial rule. Repeated violence after independence fueled this hatred driven by this supposed ethnic difference and the concocted history of the Tutsi invasion and oppression. Some 2.5 million people were massacred in this fratricidal horror of wars and genocides.
      Why did India not go the way of Rwanda-Burundi? Not for lack of trying but because the cultural foundation of Hinduism proved too strong. It defeated the designs of politicians and propagandists masquerading as scholars. It is no coincidence that Rwanda and Burundi had been converted to Christianity, preparing the ground for sectarian conflict. Several church figures, including priests and nuns have been found guilty of complicity in the Tutsi massacres. As in India, Christianity was a colonial tool and missionaries little more than imperial agents.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, sorry Lokmanya Tilak was a great freedom fighter, but definitely not an expert on this topic. He also read Max Mueller and such persons and just furthered his theory based on an absolutely defective and unsubstantiated claim

  35. sunil

    In the Rig Veda, Dasa, Dasyu and similar terms (e.g. Pani) occur sometimes in conjunction with the terms krsna (“black”) or asikni (“black”). This was often the basis for a “racial” interpretation of the Vedic texts. But Sanskrit is a language that uses many metaphors. The word cow for example can mean Mother Earth, sunshine, wealth, language, Aum etc. Words like “black” have similarly many different meanings in Sanskrit, as it is in fact the case in most languages. Thus “black” has many symbolical, mythological, psychological and other uses that are simply unrelated to human appearance. Bhagavan Shri Shanmukha Anantha Natha is the first scholar to define that the ‘blackness’ of Krishna is not a racial interpretation but refers to the Absolute in its phase of manifestation as denoted by Samkhya philosophy. The Rig Veda does not refer to ethnic terms but philosophical realities. Krishna too is described as an Asura and this does not mean that he is a ‘black Indigene’ waiting on the banks of the Amshumati river to fight with Indra (RVIII. 85. 13-15) but that the Absolute is in a stage of manifestation allegorically depicted by the ‘black drop’ in the Rig Veda.
    Also Iyengar (1914) commented on such interpretations: “The only other trace of racial reference in the Vedic hymns is the occurrence of two words, one krishna in seven passages and the other asikini in two passages. In all the passages, the words have been interpreted as referring to black clouds, a demon whose name was Krishna, or the powers of darkness.” (6-7, Iyengar, Srinivas. 1914.)
    The term krsnavonih in RV 2.20.7 has been interpreted by Asko Parpola as meaning “which in their wombs hid the black people”. Sethna (1992) writes, referring to a comment by Richard Hartz, that “there is no need to follow Parpola in assuming a further unexpressed word meaning “people” in the middle of the compound krsnayonih”, and the better known translation by Griffith, i.e. “who dwelt in darkness” can be considered as essentially correct.[6] Another scholar, Hans Hock (1999), finds Karl Friedrich Geldner’s translation of krsnayonih (RV 2.20.7) as “Blacks in their wombs” and of krsnagarbha (RV 1.101.1) as “pregnant with the Blacks” “quite recherché” and thinks that it could refer to the “dark world” of the Dasas.
    In RV 4.16.13, Geldner has assumed that “krsna” refers to “sahasra” (thousands). But this would be grammatically incorrect. If krsna would refer to “sahasra”, it should be written as krsnan (acc. pl. masc.). Hans Hock (1999) suggests that “krsna” refers to “puro” (forts) in this verse.
    For sure the Vedic writers wrote of the Dasa-Dasyus as people who lived in evil or darkness. The RV 2.2.7[1] says, “Indra the Vrtra-slayer, Fort-destroyer, scattered the Dasa hosts who dwelt in darkness.”
    Hymn XXIV reads of Brahmanaspati defeating the Dasyu demon Vala, “He drave the kine forth and cleft Vala through by prayer, dispelled the darkness and displayed the light of heaven.”
    The Vedic seers pray evil or darkness stay away from them: “May I obtain the broad light free from peril: O Indra, let not during darkness seize us.”
    Hymn XL, speaking of Devas Soma and Pusan reads, “At birth of these two Gods all Gods are joyful: they have caused darkness, which we hate, to vanish.”
    Hymn 3.1.3 reads of Agni, “Bull, who beholdest men, through many mornings, among the dark ones shine forth red, O Agni.”[2]
    Hymn 3.2.17 reads that dark (metaphor for evil) people are purified through Deva Surya: “To thee proceed the dark, the treasure-holders, both of them sanctified by Surya’s bounty.”
    Hymn 3.3.3 writes of Indra and his twin brother Agni killing darkness with light: “Killing the darkness at the light’s foundation, the Couple newly born attain their beauty.”[3]

    • som

      @John Sunil the Baptist
      A steatite (soapstone) tablet unearthed from Mohenjo-daro, Larkana district, Sindh depicting a young boy uprooting two trees from which are emerging two human figures is an interesting archaeological find for fixing dates associated with Krishna. This image recalls the Yamalarjuna episode of Bhagavata and Harivamsa Purana. In this image, the young boy is undoubtedly Krishna, and the two human beings emerging from the trees are the two cursed gandharvas, identified as Nalakubara and Manigriva. Dr. E.J.H. Mackay, who did the excavation at Mohanjodaro, compares this image with the Yamalarjuna episode. Prof. V.S. Agrawal has also accepted this identification. Thus, it seems that the Indus valley people knew stories related to Krishna. This lone find may not establish Krishna as contemporary with Pre-Indus or Indus times, but, likewise, it cannot be ignored.
      So ,it is wrong to say that Indus Valley Civilization was “Dravidian which was invaded by Aryans.
      About color of skin of Lord Krishna ,what you want to say that I know very well, About color of skin of Lord Ram ,what you will say that I know very well, You are trying to prove they are Aryan God with white complexioned.
      So,you are working here for Aryan -Dravidian agenda ,establishing your
      fake ideology like “DRAVIDIAN CHRISTIANITY”.
      So.John Sunil Baptist the traitor,
      You want to subjugate land.property and culture as per geo political goal of your western masters , break India into mutual hostile camps after spreading hatred between north Indian and south Indians. ,

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, your sources are all outdated. Obviously, you have not kept yourself abreasted with the present dynamics of this debate. Try searching yahoo, google or msn, and simply type in Aryan Invasion theory and you will find scores of sites by various authorities destroying all shreads of claims in support of AIT or a seperate Dravidian race. Since you have referred to certain Vedic passages, please click Agniveer’s site, article Aryan Invasion Theory, Vedas and Dravidians
      This is just one of the sites. In case you feel lazy to open them, I can copy and paste them for you

      • Shlok

        @Sunil, since you also mention Dasyu, once again refer to Agniveer’s website and you will find their article ‘Vedas and Dasyu’ Agniveer is run by Arya Samaj people, believe me no one can argue with them and get away, because unlike the phoney skills that óur crackpot ‘scholars’ such as Griffiths, Max Mueller and Romila Thapar possess, Arya Samaj people are very well versed in our shastra, especially the Vedas. They are maha pundits in Sanskrit. However, Agniveer is not the only one. I can send you many more

        • Vineet

          @Shlok
          Great response.

          The Manu Smriti version that likes of Sunil and his ilk of rice bag convertees read and run down is one that is interpreted by english missionaries and claimed to be authentic by “renowned scholars” on payrolls of evangelists. Manu Smriti is not as discriminatory as it is being made out to be.

          Just like the definition of Shivling has been changed / butchered / twisted to equate it with penis only when the word Ling in Sanskrit has so many other meanings like pillar etc. That definition / interpretation relating to human organ came from a Western evangelist. Even God of communist, Karl Marx ran down our religion.

          So Sunil is next generation of these jokers. We need to now hit him back and hit him hard with examples from Bible. Let him be on the run and answer with true meanings. Your source of knowledge is like “Nirmal” from one other long running thread on Christians in Andhra Pradesh, where @Sudhakar was also party.

  36. sunil

    bhambhi(brahmi) script(ashokan dynasty 300BC) is older than nagri(devnagri , nandinagri)script. vedas transfered orally because of unavailability of script say 2500BC.afterword written in devnagri.indian’s communication languages were pali , magdhi , ardhamagdhi. any one knows any state/part of indian people speeking sanskrit at that time?south indian languages using script which derived from bhambhi (older one) while north using devnagri derived script.avesta also written by aryan during there journy and before invasion in india.they definately fought against dravid(see rigvedic hymns) genetic study can not be ignored and never null and void(referances given above)brahmins hindu do MUNJ SANSKAR but non-brahmins dont, dose any one knows the reason.the word hindu is geographical or religeous? dose any religious book utter the word hindu indicating the religion? plzz reply

    • Jaipal

      @Sunil,

      Much of your statements are false and uninformed.
      You are wrong on many things.

      First of all, Brahmi is the ancestral script of all Indian scripts including
      Devanagari. It does not matter whether South Indian script or North
      Indian scripts. All of them derive from Brahmi.

      Sanskrit was the lingua franca or pan-Indian language spoken across
      country for millenias. Ardha-Magaddhi ect were also spoken
      simultaneously but Sanskrit was supreme across the country.

      There was no Aryan invasion of India. Aryan invasion is a myth.
      Avesta was composed in Southern Afghanistan whereas Rig-Veda
      was composed in North India. The composers of Veda and Avesta
      were ethnic Indian tribes native to India. There was no conflict
      between Aryans and Dravids because Dravids did not exist in the
      North. For more information you can read the three scholarly
      books by Shrikant Talageri on this topic. He proves that there was
      no invasion.

      Genetic studies show that there is no difference between Brahmins
      or the lower castes/Dalits. All Indians from North to South share
      the same genes and belong to same race. Indians descend from
      pre-historic Indian ancestors known as ANI and ASI going back
      40 000 to 60 000 years ago, long before any hypothetical Aryan
      invasion.

      • David Frawley has done excellent research and published books which demolish the invasion theory.

        • Cynical

          David Frawley’s educational credentials? Any one?

          • Indian Realist

            What were Mohammad’s credentials to receive Allah’s message?

            • Cynical

              @Indian Realist
              So if I ask you, “What is your educational qualification?’, your answer would be something like, ‘What is/are my kept’s (rakhail’s) qualification to earn my fancy?’ and there by equating yourself with my kept as you have have unwittingly equated Frawley with Mohammed. Caught in your own trap, yeh!

          • Shlok

            @On your 2nd peg, right? Educational credentials??? Are you even aware that Romila Thapar can’t even speak Sanskrit. And you people have given her the honor of interpreting the Vedic scriptures. What a joke.

            Here is a list of David Frawley’s background and achievements. That is more than enough to evaluate and interpret our scriptures.

            David Frawley (or Vāmadeva Śāstrī वामदेव शास्त्री), b. 1950, is an American Hindu teacher (acharya) and author, who has written more than thirty books on topics such as the Vedas, Hinduism, Yoga, Ayurveda and Vedic astrology, published both in India and in the United States. He is the founder and director of the American Institute of Vedic Studies in Santa Fe, New Mexico, which offers educational information on Yoga philosophy, Ayurveda, and Vedic astrology. He works closely with the magazine Hinduism Today, where he is a frequent contributor.[1] He is associated with a number of Vedic organizations in several countries. He is a Vedic teacher (Vedacharya), Vaidya (Ayurvedic doctor), and a Jyotishi (Vedic astrologer).

            In 1991, under the auspices of the Hindu teacher Avadhuta Shastri, he was named Vamadeva Shastri after the Vedic Rishi Vamadeva. In 1996 he was given the title of Pandit along with the Brahmachari Vishwanathji award in Mumbai, India.[5] He carries on the work of Kavyakantha Ganapati Muni, the chief disciple of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi.[6] He is aligned with India Shaivite teacher Sadguru Sivananda Murty.[7]

            In 1980, Frawley founded the Vedic Research Center, which he changed into the American Institute of Vedic Studies in 1988, of which he is the director. Through his institute, he offers information, resources, and courses on Yoga philosophy, Vedic astrology (Jyotisha), Ayurveda, and Vedic studies.[8]

            Frawley or Vamadeva Shastri has studied, written and taught extensively in the field of Ayurveda, starting with his work with Vasant Lad in 1983.[9] He works with multiple Ayurvedic institutions including: The Chopra Center University of Deepak Chopra (where he is a Master Educator);[10] Kerala Ayurveda Academy (where he is an advisor);[11] The California College of Ayurveda (which he advised Marc Halpern during its formation); The Kripalu school of Yoga and Ayurveda;[12] The National Ayurvedic Medical Association, (where he has been one of the four main advisors since its inception in 2000);[13] and the Association of Ayurveda Professionals of North America (AAPNA, where he is an advisor).[14] He also previously taught Chinese herbal medicine and western herbology.[15]

            Frawley’s was closely connected to the noted Indian astrologer Dr. B.V. Raman (Bangalore Venkata Raman).[16] He was one of the first Americans to receive the title of “Jyotish Kovid” from the Indian Council of Astrological Sciences (ICAS) in 1993, followed by “Jyotish Vachaspati” in 1996. He was a founder and first president of the American Council of Vedic Astrology (ACVA) from 1993-2003.[17] He uses astrology in his books on ancient history, following Sri Yukteswar (Yukteswar Giri) and emphasizing a current “Harmonization with the Galactic Center”, linking human events with cosmic time cycles.[18]

            In his Vedic educational work he is associated with the Swaminarayan movement (BAPS, Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha) and their many temples throughout the world.[19]

            In essays and books such as In Search of the Cradle of Civilization (1995), Frawley endorses the “Indigenous Aryans” scenario propagated in Hindu nationalism during the 1990s.[20]

          • cnm

            @cynical
            His educational credentials are at least 20 times the educational credentials of jokers like Romila Thapar put together.

          • Vineet

            More than education, you need honesty and objectivity in research. If your educated historians could only come up with Aryan Invasion Theory and more of such crap, then perhaps being less educated but being honest is better

          • @Cynical Don’t be lazy. Go on the internet and check David Frawley out.

            • Cynical

              What makes you think that I didn’t? Allow the benefit of a few grey cells in others who do not agree with you. All that there is in the net is what books he wrote, what positions he held and what titles he received in and by sundry dubious organisations. Which school, college, university he went? What research he has done , on what ,under whose guidance?

              • Shlok

                @Cynical, probably you were expecting that Frawley should have had the blessings of Her Ladyship Romila Thapar. Your few grey cells, being reading a lot of Agatha Christie these days ah, do not function at all. No Commie ‘intellectuals’ brains function. You ought to read Arun Shourie’s, ‘Esteemed Historians….’ and also K S Lal on how these Commies dominate all these prestigious institutions, and do not allow any other opinion to flourish. Anyone who is not with them is thrown out of the system. Persons like K S Lal were renowed historians in the field of medieval history, so long as he didn’t cross swords with the Commie version, he was hailed. The moment he highlighted the barbarism of the Muslims, who committed the biggest genocide on Hindus,he was labelled a RSS wallah and thrown out of their ‘club’. So, if one has to get guidance under persons like Kosambi, Mohammed and Irfan Habib, R S Sharma, Shrimali, Malati Shendge, and of course Thapar herself, then how can one be considered as a scholar. One can only be labelled as a chamcha, who is just fit to polish these persons egos. So stop making a fool out of yourself. You expect Frawley to take guidance from such bunch of motivated, committed deshdrohis, you must be insane. Besides the traditional way of learning Sanskrit and Vedas is the very method that Frawley has taken. So, my friend you may now continue with your 6th peg, jhoom baraabar jhoom sharaabi.

                • Shlok

                  @Cynical, Arun Shourié’s book is titled,’Éminent Historians – their techniques, their line, their fraud’. If you want to activate your brain, then Hercule Poirot won’t be able to help you.You ought to read this book

                  • Cynical

                    @Shlok
                    Can you please give me the name of the publisher of this book of Shourie.
                    Since I live in small town, I mostly depend on sites like Amazon to buy books I need. By the way did you read Arun Shourie’s ‘Worshipping False Gods’ (Harper Collins)? No, it is not against Christ or Muhammad. It is against Ambedkar!!!!!

                    • Shlok

                      @Cynical, here are the details:

                      Eminent Historians
                      Their Technology, Their Line, Their Fraud

                      ISBN 81-291-0489-X

                      Author: Arun Shourie

                      Published by
                      Rupa & Co
                      7/16, Ansari Road
                      Daryaganj
                      New Delhi 110 002

                      Website of Rupa Publications http://www.rupapublications.co.in

                      First Published 1998
                      First in Rupa Paperback 2004
                      Third Impression 2007

                    • Shlok

                      @Cynical, of course I’ve read ‘Worshipping False Gods’ – I am a bookworm, and read at least 30 – 40 books per year. Can never sleep while travelling so books are my best buddy. Anyway, Arun Shourie has documented Ambedkar’s collaboration with the British establishment and shows how Ambedkar never placed priority towards India’s independence. Arun Shourie never speaks without providing the necessary back up evidence. So, we can’t deny the claims he is making.

                      However, among most neutral, Hindutva friendly and RSS backed intellectuals, Ambedkar is at least considered as a great person, if not as a hero. Koenraad Elst, in his books even says that Ambedkar was a much greater person than Mahatma Gandhi. I think that Ambedkar was blunt and honest, and was not a hypocrite, like Mahatma Gandhi. It is well known that Ambedkar was being offered large sums of money to convert his followers to either Islam or Christianity. But he rejected both, and instead adopted Buddhism. He had made it clear that by accepting Buddhism, he and the SC that he represented will still remain part of the Indian ethos. Ambedkar rejected Aryan – Dravidian race theory completely. He rejected all such mischief that is being propograted today by his crazy followers that Shudras / Dalits were indigenous and others came from outside,etc (since then this has been upgraded to Afro-Dalitism, as shown in the book written by Rajiv Malhotra). Ambedkar accepted that the Vedas knew no discrimination between the different castes. He acknowledged the general affinity between the different castes, giving examples of Vyasdev and Valmiki. What present day secularists who swear by him have concealed is his attitude towards Muslims. He didn’t like them. In this ‘Thoughts on Pakistan’, he was much more practical than Gandhiji. Knowing before hand the direction of the independence movement and how Pakistan would become a reality,he said that all Muslims should be sent to live in Pakistan, there should be a complete exchange of Pakistan. Thus, his thoughts were more or less keeping with mainstream nationalistic leaders of the day and even today. However, Ambedkar also had many other wrong notions of Hinduism, especially the Puranas. In the final analysis I believe that there cannot be one conclusion of what kind of person Ambedkar was. He had his moments of weaknesses. But whatever he was, he definitely is not what he is being made out by his current followers.

                      As far as his influence is concerned, during his life, it was vastly exaggerated. Only the scheduled castes in Maharashtra converted to Buddhism, and that too about 70%. There are still SC in Maharashtra who remain Hindu. But of course, his name continues to be exploited by politicians,especially BSP among others. But I definitely disagree with Shourie in his ‘Gandhibhakti’. But that again is another topic

                    • Shlok

                      @Cynical, I meant Ambedkar said ‘there should be complete exchange of population’ – today seems to be the day for many typing errors both on your side and my side

                    • Cynical

                      @Shlok

                      Most sincere thanks for the details about the book. I will definitely get it. On Ambedkar, I will only say that he was a British lackey, had no contribution in the independence movement and had a bitter, or rather toxic disposition. Very similar to Jinnah. Having said that it must be said that he was a man of high intellect, again similar to Jinnah. I commend Nehru for recognizing this aspect of Ambedkar and getting him in his first cabinet though he (Ambedkar) was not a congressman and was a known Nehru-Gandhi basher.

    • som

      @sunil
      MUNJ SANSKAR or Upanayana is the initiation ritual by which initiates are invested with a sacred thread, to symbolize the transference of spiritual knowledge.
      A bachelor wears only one sacred thread; a married man wears two of them making it six strands. If the man has married and has fathered a child, he wears three, which makes nine strands.
      The strands could represent purity in thought, word and deed expected from the wearer.

      The thin, yellowed, Yajnopavita thread runs from left shoulder to waist. Note the munja grass girdle around the waist. The peepal tree twig in his right hand marks his entry into the Brahmacharya stage of life.

      Upanayana (lit. “leading closer” to the Brahma) is a version of the sacred thread ceremony where the concept of Brahman is introduced to a boy. Traditionally, the ceremony was performed to mark the point at which boys began their formal education. The ceremony is performed when the boy is seven years old (Gharbheshu ashtame varshe) in the Brahmin varna, at least 13 years in the Kshatriya varna.
      However, some sects, especially Arya Samaj, perform this ceremony for girls as well on the basis of this statement.
      Ancient texts refer to the wearing of the Yajñopavītam in three forms:
      (1)Upavītam, where the Yajñopavītam is worn over the left shoulder and under the right arm. This is for Gods. Upavītam is also called savya (Katyayana Shrauta Sutra, etc.).
      (2)Nivītam’, where the Yajñopavītam is worn around the neck and over the chest. Nivīta form is to be used during Rishi Tharpana, sexual intercourse, answering the calls of nature, etc., and during ancestor worship/funeral rites (Shadvimsha Brahmana, Latyayana, etc.).
      (3)Prachīnavītam is where the Yajñopavītam is worn above the right shoulder and under the left arm. This is for Spirits and is used by men when performing the death ceremonies of an elder. Prachīnavītam is also called apsavya (Katyayana Shrauta Sutra, Manusmriti, etc.).

      • karan

        @som
        You have clearly depicted wearing of the Yajñopavītam in three forms in
        three specific events.
        @sunil
        Brahmins hindu do MUNJ SANSKAR but non-brahmins dont, dose any one knows the reason???
        Doctor wear stethoscope (an acoustic medical device for auscultation, or listening to the internal sounds of an animal or human body. It is often used to listen to lung and heart sounds. It is also used to listen to intestines and blood flow in arteries and veins).,other’s not,everybody knows the reason.

        • nikhil

          @sunil
          Brahmins Hindu do MUNJ SANSKAR but non-brahmins dont, dose any one knows the reason???
          NOT REALLY.
          Ancient Hindu texts specify an age for the Upanayana ceremony based on the caste (8 for Brahmins, 11 for Kshathriyas, 12 for Vaishyas (Manu Smriti sloka 2:36)).
          Upanayanam marks the start of learning of “Brahman” and Vedic texts.

          The age for Upanayanam supports this as Brahmins devote their life in pursuing the knowledge of “Brahman” and hence makes sense to start early and continue for a longer time.
          Kshathriyas, on the other hand, study additional skills and go through “Brahman 101″.
          In the communities where three strands of Yajñopavītam are added at the time of wedding, there is another interpretation.

          Once a student achieves a certain level of Brahma knowledge (“Brahma Vidya”), the guru adds three more strings signifying GRADUATION” and the student goes on to study. In South Indian wedding ceremonies, the addition of the three more strings is followed by “KASHI YATRA”. This signifies the Yatra student intends for ADVANCE STUDY. At this point, the father of the bride convinces the youth to get married and then go to Kashi (Varanasi) with his new bride.
          In modern days, the ceremony is packaged in the wedding ceremony.

      • nikhil

        @som
        Yajñopavītam has each consisting of three strands. These represent:
        (1)Goddess Gayatri (Goddess of mind);
        (2)Goddess Saraswati (Goddess of word);
        (3)Goddess Savitri (Goddess of deed).

    • nikhil

      @sunil
      Bhambhi(brahmi) script(ashokan dynasty 300BC) is older than nagri(devnagri , nandinagri)script.
      NOT REALLY.

      Sanskrit nāgarī is the feminine of nāgara “relating or belonging to a town or city”. It is feminine from its original phrasing with lipi (“script”) as nāgarī lipi “script relating to a city”, that is, probably from its having originated in some city.
      The best-known Brahmi inscriptions are the rock-cut edicts of Ashoka in north-central India, dated to 250-232 BCE. The script was deciphered in 1837 by James Prinsep, an archaeologist, philologist, and official of the British East India Company.

    • nikhil

      @sunil
      Dose any religious book utter the word hindu indicating the religion?

      YES,BECAUSE HINDUISM IS NOT RELIGION IN ABRAHMANIC SENSE,(THAT IS,ONE FOUNDER ,ONE BOOK ,AN UGLY NOISE OF”MY
      GOD IS TRUE ,YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND FINALLY ONE GEO-POLITICAL AGENDA TO SUBJUGATE OTHER FAITH BY ANY HOOK AND CROOK)
      OTHER THAN THIS ABRAHMANIC FAITH IS CALLED “HINDUISM”.
      Supreme Court of India highlighted Bal Gangadhar Tilak’s formulation of Hinduism’s defining features:
      Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence; recognition of the fact that the means or ways to salvation are diverse; and the realization of the truth that the number of gods to be worshipped is large, that indeed is the distinguishing feature of Hindu religion

    • som

      @sunil
      indian’s communication languages were pali , magdhi , ardhamagdhi. any one knows any state/part of indian people speeking sanskrit at that time?
      ARE YOU A FOREIGNER???DO YOUR ANCESTORS HAD CAME FROM ABOARD???
      Sanskrit had been extensively used at that that time in religious discourse,ceremonies,daily puja in entire temples.
      IF YOU ARE NOT FOREIGNER AND YOUR ANCESTORS HAD NOT CAME FROM ABOARD, THEN YOU KNOW THAT
      Sanskrit is a historical Indian language, the primary liturgical language of Hinduism and a literary and scholarly language in Buddhism and Jainism. Developing from Vedic Sanskrit, today it is listed as one of the 22 scheduled languages of India and is an official language of the state of Uttarakhand. Sanskrit holds a prominent position in Indo-European studies.

      The corpus of Sanskrit literature encompasses a rich tradition of poetry and drama as well as scientific, technical, philosophical and dharma texts. Sanskrit continues to be widely used as a ceremonial language in Hindu religious rituals and Buddhist practice in the forms of hymns and mantras. Spoken Sanskrit is still in use in some villages and a few traditional institutions in India, and there are many attempts at further popularisation

    • som

      @sunil
      IF YOU ARE NOT FOREIGNER AND YOUR ANCESTORS HAD NOT CAME FROM ABOARD, THEN YOU KNOW THAT:
      The Sanskrit verbal adjective samsara- may be translated as “put together, constructed, well or completely formed; refined, adorned, highly elaborated”. It is derived from the root saṃ-skar- “to put together, compose, arrange, prepare”, where saṃ- “together” (as English same) and samskar- “do, make”.

      The term in the generic meaning of “made ready, prepared, completed, finished” is found in the Rigveda. Also in Vedic Sanskrit, as nominalised neuter saṃskṛtám, it means “preparation, prepared place” and thus “ritual enclosure, place for a sacrifice”.

      As a term for “refined or elaborated speech” the adjective appears only in Epic and Classical Sanskrit, in the Manusmriti and in the Mahabharata. The language referred to as saṃskṛta “the cultured language” has by definition always been a “sacred” and “sophisticated” language, used for religious and learned discourse in ancient India, and contrasted with the languages spoken by the people, prakrita- “natural, artless, normal, ordinary”.

    • som

      @John Sunil ,the baptist

      avesta (sacred texts of Zoroastrianism )also written by aryan during there journy and before invasion in india!!!!!!!!!!
      DO NOT SPREAD LIES.
      The Avesta is the primary collection of sacred texts of Zoroastrianism, and is composed in the Avestan language.
      Swami Vivekananda’s welcome address on September 11, 1893 at World Parliament of religion,Chicago.

      “I am proud to belong to a nation which has sheltered the persecuted and the refugees of all religions and all nations of the earth. I am proud to tell you that we have gathered in our bosom the purest remnant of the Israelites who came to Southern India and took refuge with us in very year in which their holy temple was shattered to pieces by Roman tyranny. I am proud to belong to the religion which has sheltered and is still fostering the remnant of the grand Zoroastrian nation.”
      According to the Qissa-i Sanjan tradition, the present-day Zoroastrians (Parsis) descend from a group of Zoroastrians from Greater Iran who immigrated to Gujarat in western India during the 8th or 10th century to avoid persecution by Muslim invaders who were in the process of conquering Iran..At the time of the Muslim conquest of Persia, the dominant religion of the region was Zoroastrianism. Iranians rebelled against Arab invaders for almost 200 years; in Iran this period is now known as the “Two Centuries of Silence” or “Period of Silence”.During this time many Iranians who are now called Parsi rejected both options and instead chose to take refuge by fleeing from Iran to India..
      So,John Sunil ,the baptist
      DO NOT SPREAD LIES.

    • karan

      @sunil
      Vedas transfered orally because of unavailability of script say 2500BC!!!
      YOU ARE WRONG.
      Vyasa is a central and revered figure in most Hindu traditions. He is also sometimes called Veda Vyasa (the one who classified the Vedas into four parts) or Krishna Dvaipayana (referring to his complexion and birthplace) who was born in Damauli of Tanahu district, Nepal about 5500 yrs ago.

      It is clearly written in ancient religious books and “Shastra” and the ancient cave is still there in Nepal where Vyasa created the “Mahabharata” and other epics. He is the author of the Mahabharata, as well as a character in it. He is considered to be the scribe of both the Vedas and Puranas.
      Vyasa is also known as kala-Avatar or part-incarnation of the God Vishnu

    • Raj

      @John Sunil ,the baptist
      Whatever you have written about MUNJ SANSKAR or Upanayana ,Bhambhi(brahmi) script and nagri script,Sanskrit,Hindu Dharma(not religion in abrahmanic sense) author of Awesta ARE COMPLETELY WRONG,

      • Western scholars and religious clerics wrote untruths about the history of India in order to discount Hinduism. These people are not true scholars and researchers. They are polluted by their own bigotry and covert agendas. What they write is not worth a penny.

        • Shlok

          @Duartmaclean, exactly. Even persons like Max Mueller who were genuinely amazed by the beauty of the Vedas had still to follow their own Christian conscience when interpreting the Rig Veda

        • shankar

          @duartmaclean
          Modern science presents us with a rather bleak scenario, where there is basically no meaning in living, all is chance and with the death of the body everything is finished. It is still the in-thing to believe among the so called intellectual elite in the west. The bleakness is not so much due to the fact that science considers the human mind as just a temporary flicker. Even the Indian rishis consider the mind as just thoughts, modifications in pure awareness that are ultimately as unreal as the solidity in matter. The bleakness is rather due to the fact that scientists don’t figure in the big (the word Brahman comes from big, expanding) living, blissful Presence, Intelligence, Awareness, Absolute or whatever name we want to give to the Unnameable.

          The rishis claim that it is here, right beneath the individual awareness full of thoughts and feelings that prevent the experience of the underlying pure awareness. They encourage stilling thoughts with the help of meditation. When thoughts are stilled, it will become obvious that there is no separate individual awareness. Brahman is all there is.

          • nitha

            VEDIC MANAGEMENT: PRINCIPLES ON VALUES AND DHARMIC WORLD ORDER AND PEACE

            INTEGRATES NEW AND OLD; INTEGRATES SCIENCE AND SPIRITUALITY ; INTEGRATES EXPERIENCEABLE & EXPERIMENTABLE KNOWLEDGE; TAKES GOOD FROM ALL SOURCES; MEANT FOR ALL , ALL OVER THE WORLD; BASED ON ICCHA +JNAANA+ KRIYAA SAKTI; INTEGRATES SELF, FAMILY & SOCIETY…

          • @ Shankar I agree with you completely. I’m a Vedantin. I discovered the Bhagavad-Gita in my father’s library when I was 19 years old. I read it, and a whole new Reality opened up to me. When I was 22 I was initiated into Transcendental Meditation (as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi). I’ve had the privilege of teaching hundreds of people this method of meditating. In 1994 I became a devotee of Sri Ramana Maharshi in a rather unusual way. Since then (and before) I’ve studied (in english) the principal Upanishads, Adi Sankara’s commentaries on the Upanishads, the Brahma Sutras, as well as Vivika Chudamani, etc. Recently, I completed writing a 200 page book on all of this entitled: ‘The Undying Self: Vedic Wisdom in the New Millennium’. I am abundantly clear that the Upanishads and great sages such as Adi Shankara and Ramana Maharshi hold the Knowledge that will set humanity free — if humanity chooses to wake up. None of the other religions and spiritual philosophies can match the Vedanta, in my personal opinion. I am now 62. Namaste!

  37. sunil

    jaipal you can not say randomly ‘that genetic study is outdated and wrong’ nitha your discussion is really healthy and i appreciated it.
    but i didnt get your ‘inscruptable script ‘ are you talking about KHAROSHTI script, which is prior to brahmi? and do you any second opinion about my statement ‘nagri script comes after brahmi in which vedas are written?”if yes please discuss here.
    som there are so many episode which can be compares .In the discussion I already told that rigved hymns itself explaining that aryans distryed dravids (ref-R.V. 2.20.7,1.101.1,4.16.13, 2.27, HYMNS xxiv, 3.13.3 and so many , please read rigved if you get.
    jaipal- please give some references about suprimacy of sanskrit, and explain why there are upper castes and lower castes in society if there is no genetic difference ?
    som- nice explanation about upnayana but my question was why it is not practiced in all parts of society ? why there is no unity?
    karan- see nikhil’s explanation , its making some sens
    karan do you mean that brahmins are superior in society (like doctor)dont you think this ego is harmful for unity of society? nitha you are having really good knowledge what i can say after reading your discussion , are you agree with karan ?.

    • ravi

      @sunil
      The central concepts of”varna ” is that nobody should possess knowledge, political power,Wealth
      and land at a time.
      Brahman should possess only knowledge, khatriya should possess only political power i.e.crown,vaishya or merchant class should possess only wealth and sudra should possess land.
      This is the purest form of verna system.
      In this circumstance nobody is superior or inferior

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, it is easier to refer to Agniveer because they have covered every single topic in a easy-to-read manner. Check their article, No untouchability in the Vedas. You will also find the source of high and low caste. There seems to be some problem with the server provider. When I am typing in the exact link, I am unable to send the post. But you can easily access Agniveer and find all the expert comments.
      And talking about genetic study, in 2006 the ICHR chairman had concluded research along with many renowned researchers and scholars and the conclusion they drew was that there was no such thing as either an Aryan Invasion theory, or the modified Aryan Migration Theory. Again, I am having difficulty copying the link and pasting it over here, however, the article is titled, ‘People in North and South India have the same gene pool’ and this article was prominently covered even in the Hindu. Neither the researchers or the media who covered were any kind of Hindutvavadis. In fact the Hindu is absolutely dominated by CPI(M) followers

  38. sunil

    guys sequence of books written after vedas are like this – upnishadas , aaranyakas, brahmanes, shrutis , smritis , and puranas, that means puranas and gita written very very late. most of books written in shunga’s dynasty(187B.C) after murder of Brihratha (mauryan dynasty) by Pushyamitra Shunga,e.g. manusmriti, and Gupta’s dynasty (200CE-400CE) e.g. gita , puranas SO please while giving references of there books always keep in mind the era when it written.

    • nitha

      @sunil
      This is not the question that which was written first,
      Gita is most ancient knowledge which was first given to SURYA by Almighty.
      For God sake ,first read Gita.

    • Indian Realist

      And please enlighten us as to how did you arrive at this chronology? Max Mueller said no power on earth can determine when they were written.

    • nitha

      @sunil
      Hinduism have no founder ,and about Gita,don’t think
      it is just a part of Mahabharata.
      Actually ,Mahabharata had been woven around Gita,
      just to say the ultimate truth to the entire mankind.
      So,there is no power on earth which could determine
      the exact time of first discourse of Almighty to the mankind and the glory of Mahabharata is only due to
      Gita.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, sorry we do not accept this kind of biased, faulty and distorted chronology. People like Griffiths, Max Mueller and Romila Thapar have no jurisdication, authority and foundation to say that Gita or some of the other Puranas were written very late. Most Hindu scholars accept that BG was written around 5,000 years ago. Some others like BB Lal have said that from the exploration of the Dwarka site which has many remnants to the Mahabharat period, that it was AT LEAST 3,000 years old. He does not rule out that it could be upto 5,000 years, but it is according to his knowledge that he could say it was at least 3,000 years old. Neverthless only motivated and ignorant ‘scholars’ can claim that it was any later than that. There are some ‘experts’ such as Michael Witzel who even claim that the Ramayana was written after the Mahabharat. So, if you are going to repeat the same trash, better save your time, as your theories and claims have no foundation whatsoever

  39. sunil

    here is one reference from wikipedia
    The epic Mahabharata is traditionally ascribed to the Sage Ved Vyasa; the Bhagavad Gita, being a part of the Mahabharata, is also ascribed to him.[3] Theories on the date of composition of the Gita vary considerably. Scholars accept dates from fifth century to second century BCE as the probable range. Professor Jeaneane Fowler, in her commentary on the Gita, considers second century BCE to be the likely date of composition.[4] Kashi Nath Upadhyaya, a Gita scholar, on the basis of the estimated dates of Mahabharata, Brahma sutras, and other independent sources, concludes that the Bhagavad Gita was composed between fifth and fourth centuries BCE.[5] It is generally agreed that “Unlike the Vedas, which have to be preserved letter-perfect, the Gita was a popular work whose reciters would inevitably conform to changes in language and style,” so the earliest ‘surviving’ components of this dynamic text are believed to be no older than the earliest ‘external’ references we have to the Mahabharata epic, which may include an allusion in Panini’s fourth century BCE grammar. It is estimated that the Sanskrit text probably reached something of a “final form” by the early Gupta period (about the 4th century CE). The actual dates of composition of the Gita remain unresolved.[3]

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, I have read something about him. He does say that the Mahabharat period must be in 250AD. How he comes to his conclusion, nobody knows. Over here you also mentioned about Lokmanya Tilak. Whatever these people’s other qualifications may be, definitely they were also carrying the same baggage of AIT / AMT theory. They are definitely not scholars on the lines of David Frawley, Koenraad Elst, NS Rajaram, Vijaya Rajiva, Shrikant Talageri, BB Lal, etc. who have made intensive research on the dating of the scriptures. So quote from authorities. Of course, you might claim that people like Witzel and Thapar hold prominent places in universities, but the above scholars that I mentioned but persons like Rajiv Malhotra, Arvind Sharma among others have lambasted these ‘esteemed’ scholars point by point. So whether you like it or not, the conclusion is that there was no such thing as Aryan race and Dravidian race, Sanskrit is the oldest and also mother of all langauges, and our scriptures are much older than what these jokers claim them to be. Chapter close

  40. sunil

    here is one referece from wikipedia.
    THE epic Mahabharata is traditionally ascribed to the Sage Ved Vyasa; the Bhagavad Gita, being a part of the Mahabharata, is also ascribed to him.[3] Theories on the date of composition of the Gita vary considerably. Scholars accept dates from fifth century to second century BCE as the probable range. Professor Jeaneane Fowler, in her commentary on the Gita, considers second century BCE to be the likely date of composition.[4] Kashi Nath Upadhyaya, a Gita scholar, on the basis of the estimated dates of Mahabharata, Brahma sutras, and other independent sources, concludes that the Bhagavad Gita was composed between fifth and fourth centuries BCE.[5] It is generally agreed that “Unlike the Vedas, which have to be preserved letter-perfect, the Gita was a popular work whose reciters would inevitably conform to changes in language and style,” so the earliest ‘surviving’ components of this dynamic text are believed to be no older than the earliest ‘external’ references we have to the Mahabharata epic, which may include an allusion in Panini’s fourth century BCE grammar. It is estimated that the Sanskrit text probably reached something of a “final form” by the early Gupta period (about the 4th century CE). The actual dates of composition of the Gita remain unresolved.[3]

  41. nitha

    @ravi
    Your comment is very well written. In purest form of verna system ,nobody is upper and
    lower.
    Remember it is “verna system”not cast system.The word “cast ” was first coined by
    Portuguese (they pronounciate it “CASTA”) and about “jati ” it had possess the meaning of family _not in modern sense I.e.nuclear, but in broad sense I.e KUTUMB means entire
    heredity( no appropriate word available in English)

  42. nitha

    @sunil
    In this regard, lot of research is necessary (not
    available in Wikipedia) about NAGRI and DEVNAGRI.
    If you are not Hindu,then you could not understand that all APURUSEYA (not man made) written in Devbhasha (language of deities)
    I.e.Sanskrit in Devnagri script (again Dev that means deities ).
    So you and your Wikipedia could not solve this matter.

  43. S

    Man, the dead Jew cultists sure have their undies in a twist over when Hindu texts were written. Here’s a good site for their own deadly book and should be required reading for all new brown stupid converts -

    http://www.evilbible.com/

  44. Vineet

    Dear All,

    What our Converted Friend Sunil is writing is a standard drill of these rice bags convertees. Say everything possible about Hindus and our scriptures quoting “scholars” and these scholars too are either on payrolls of American Evangelists or rice convertees like himself.

    @Sunil – how about explaining the missing years of Jesus from the Bible, if you think it was so perfect. Your great great grandfather in running down Hinduism, Max Mueller and your parent Christians thought that world was only 6000yrs old and hence every possible thing was explained in those timelines. Hence jokers like you will come up with such dates. It is hilarious stuff, you guys write better jokes than Comedy Circus writers.

    It is a common trait of convertees to Islam and Christianity (the going per month rate in Delhi for a poor man to convert to Christianity is around Rs 3-3.5k) that they start liking Arab and Western world respectively after conversion and start running down our Bhaarat and our culture.

    Shlok, Som, Nitha, Karan, Duart and all others, keep up the good work. It is imperative that we answers such buggers every time and always and not only answer their queries but have to be aggressive and question their religious nonsense. Fully support your efforts. Internet has opened the channels for truth to be told in public domain with these buggers who are hell bent on breaking India (Congressis, pseudo secularists, Muslims, Christians, Communists, Naxals, many NGOs brigade) earlier controlled avenues of public discourse.

    Lets hit them hard every time and always.

    Regards

    • Cynical

      @Vineet
      You know the going rates for conversion and call people rice bag converts (at some other pages you once mentioned milk powder as well). That’s as close as letting people know how shallow and cheap Hindus are that they can be bought for so little. Keep up the good work.

      • Vineet

        @Cynical
        You may come to New Delhi, I promise you to make you meet the person concerned for first hand experience.

        Promise you that.

        • Cynical

          @Vineet
          Thanks for the invitation. But how do I contact you. Leave your cell no, or an address where I can contact you. Trust me I am not a biased person you might think. I want to go by the ground realities, if it is against my perception of truth, I have no hesitation to accept it.

      • Avinash

        @ Cynical, India is the only place where the two marauding Religions could not succeed completely. They had enormous success in the Arabian Peninsula, Europe, America, Australia and major parts of Africa. Seems you people still carry that grudge.

  45. sunil

    ^ Witzel, Michael, “Vedas and Upaniṣads”, in: Flood 2003, p. 68
    ^ For the possibility of written texts during the 1st century BCE see: Witzel, Michael, “Vedas and Upaniṣads”, in: Flood 2003, p. 69; For oral
    composition and oral transmission for “many hundreds of years” before being written down, see: Avari 2007, p. 76.Evidence attesting to prehistoric religion in the Indian subcontinent derives from scattered Mesolithic rock paintings. The Harappan people of the Indus Valley Civilisation, which lasted from 3300–1300 BCE (mature period, 2600-1900 BCE), was an early urbanised culture which predates the Vedic religion. The Dravidian peoples and Dravidian languages of South India also predate the Vedic religion.[note 2]
    The documented history of Indian religions begins with the historical Vedic religion, the religious practices of the early Indo-Aryans, which were collected and later redacted into the Vedas. The period of the composition, redaction and commentary of these texts is known as the Vedic period, which lasted from roughly 1750 to 500 BCE.[2]
    The Reform Period between 800-200 BCE marks a “turning point between the Vedic religion and Hindu religions”.[3] The Shramana movement, an ancient Indian religious movement parallel to but separate from Vedic tradition, gave rise to Jainism[4] and Buddhism,[5] and was responsible for the related concepts of Yoga,[6] saṃsāra (the cycle of birth and death) and moksha (liberation from that cycle).[7] This period also saw the writing of the Upanishads and the rise of Vedanta.
    The Puranic Period (200 BCE – 500 CE) and Early Medieaval period (500-1100 CE) gave rise to new configurations of Hinduism, especially bhakti and Shaivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, Smarta and much smaller groups like the conservative Shrauta
    .Vyasa, the narrator of the Mahabharata, is traditionally considered the compiler of the Puranas.[4] However, the earliest written versions date from the time of the Gupta Empire (third-fifth century CE) and much material may be dated, through historical references and other means, to this period and the succeeding centuries. The texts were probably written all over India

    • Vineet

      @Sunil

      Let me give you some common sense answers instead quotes from the “well respected scholars.” We all know a bit more about “well respected scholars” than you believe we do.

      “PURUSHSUKTA OF RIGVEDA described that shudras born from feet and this was the start of discrimination, this was the base which by the time converted into social discrimination in india”

      There was never a caste system as you claim it has been in Hindus. It was always a division of labour. If God is almighty then the image of God is used to describe type of work. For example, Brahmins or those involved in teaching etc duties came from His head/face, simply because you think with your head (in your case it may be different). Kshatriyas or warriors came from arms, since you use them for fighting. The business class was denoted from thighs since they sat in their shops etc; finally the labour was denoted by feet since it denoted working class. It is so simple, why create differences on such basis.

      ================

      “when the first time Aryan started ruling India 187 B.C.(shunga dynasty, gupta dynasty).IN FACT THERE WAS NO UNTOUCHABILITY IN BUDDHIST INDIA(mauryan dynasy , ASHOKA, kaniska kingdom)”

      Ok Ok. Thanks for propagating the Aryan Invasion Theory nonsense again and again.

      ==============

      “The Reform Period between 800-200 BCE marks a “turning point between the Vedic religion and Hindu religions”.[3]

      Another typical way of these Christians of showcasing that Vedic religion was different from Sanatan Dharm. Sometime later Sunil will also claim that post arrival of his St Thomas only did Hindu religion came into being. Fits to the T the manner in which the Christians go about undermining native religions and creating fault lines among the natives. They have done it in Africa and are doing in India as well. The way they have been able to split North and South India is worth seeing and understanding.
      ==============

      “ The Shramana movement, an ancient Indian religious movement parallel to but separate from Vedic tradition, gave rise to Jainism[4] and Buddhism,[5] and was responsible for the related concepts of Yoga,[6] saṃsāra (the cycle of birth and death) and moksha (liberation from that cycle).[7] This period also saw the writing of the Upanishads and the rise of Vedanta.”

      It is only this Sanatan Dharma philosophy which encourages people to find salvation by finding new routes without losing the basis of righteousness. If Jains, Buddhs have benefitted from this philosophy, its good, the society in general have benefitted from the new inflows. Even they were not in the “I am right you are wrong” format of mid-eastern cults.

      The life cycle format is base of philosophy of this great land. Anyone with iota of sense (which you seem not to have) will know that it is the Vedic or Sanatan Dharm or current Hinduism (whatever name you like to choose) which conveys this message. Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and all other branches of this great tree have imbibed the same message.

      ============

      “The Puranic Period (200 BCE – 500 CE) and Early Medieaval period (500-1100 CE) gave rise to new configurations of Hinduism, especially bhakti and Shaivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, Smarta and much smaller groups like the conservative Shrauta .Vyasa, the narrator of the Mahabharata, is traditionally considered the compiler of the Puranas.[4] However, the earliest written versions date from the time of the Gupta Empire (third-fifth century CE) and much material may be dated, through historical references and other means, to this period and the succeeding centuries. The texts were probably written all over India”

      What you are writing is comical to say the least. Keep on trying hard to fit in the dates to ensure that Hindus are shown not much older than arrival of your St Thomas. We can see through the tricks.

      ===============

      Regards

  46. sunil

    some references
    1)michales,Axel(2004)-hinduism past &present, pririceton, new jersy university press
    2)witzel, michael -vedas &upanishada (2003)
    3)muesse, mart w (2011)-the hindu tradition :a concise introduction , fortess press
    4)history of hinduism -prof gavin flood vedic period (1500-500BCE), PURANIC PERIOD (500BCE-500CE)
    5)THE PURANAS -SRI SWAMI SIVANAND
    6)w3hat are puranas , are they myth? -dr r.k lahri.

  47. sunil

    ravi-of course there is inferiority dude, just see rules in manusmriti for women and shudras, dude you will come to know how inferiorly women are treated(but this is an separate issue, we are discussing here “when vedas were written?”)
    shlok- you are absolutely right , untouchability is not in vedas.but PURUSHSUKTA OF RIGVEDA described that shudras born from feet and this was the start of discrimination, this was the base which by the time converted into social discrimination in india, when the first time Aryan started ruling India 187 B.C.(shunga dynasty, gupta dynasty).IN FACT THERE WAS NO UNTOUCHABILITY IN BUDDHIST INDIA(mauryan dynasy , ASHOKA, kaniska kingdom)

    nitha – when the word come like apaurushaya , anadi, anant,, especially anadi( nothing was before) then vedas will prior to existence of GOD!! hey we are not here to discuss supernatural things. just come baseline talk about history, be more practical,”wade wade tatvabodhay jayte”

    Devanagari is part of the Brahmic(bhambhic) family of scripts of India, Nepal, Tibet, and South-East Asia.[2] It is a descendant of the Gupta script, along with Siddham and Sharada.[2] Eastern variants of Gupta called nāgarī are first attested from the 8th century CE; from c. 1200 CE these gradually replaced Siddham, which survived as a vehicle for Tantric Buddhism in East Asia, and Sharada, which remained in parallel use in Kashmir. An early version of Devanagari is visible in the Kutila inscription of Bareilly dated to Vikram Samvat 1049 (i.e. 992 CE), which demonstrates the emergence of the horizontal bar to group letters belonging to a word.[3]
    VEDAS WRITTEN IN DEVNAGRI. All scripts are the production of human brain so the word apaurushaya becomes meaningless.

    shlok – please suggest me some website where people talks with middle path, where they accepting the truth,and opposing the untruth.where ancient indian history is discuss and discussion is not with keeping some religion in brain(like dr zakir hussain talks on peace TV, not ready to accepts others view) so what the use of talking with people?

    indian realist – thank you for giving opportunity to talk on your site, i m not that great, to enlight you team,you people already enlighted. but with my short knowledge, sure I give some references here, these books will be available in our library dpt of history , mumbai university, kalina.Also you will find in other libraries.

    • Indian Realist

      “just see rules in manusmriti for women and shudras, dude you will come to know how inferiorly women are treated”

      Is Manusmriti a Hindu scripture? It is as much a Hindu scripture as a John Grisham novel is a Christian scripture. You converts, brainwashed by White Man’s church, never talk about the upanishads, Gita, Vedas and the six systems of Hindu philosophy which are actually Hindu scriptures, but for some reason only talk about Manu Smriti. Do you even know what a Smriti is and why they are written?

      Now, let us talk about what the Christian scripture Bible says. It full of verses justifying witch hunts against women and treating them like animals.

      “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

      “You shall not let a sorceress live.” (Exodus 22:18)

      “Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.” (1 Samuel 15:3)

      “Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock.” (Psalm 137:9)

      “Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

      “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” (Deuteronomy 25:11-13)

      With these verses, I think the only thing that needs to be “saved” is humans from the Christian God.

      What do you Brown converts smoke that you cannot see these verses in Bible but are obsessed with a verse in Manu Smriti that no Hindu claims as a scripture? Your juvenile propaganda can work among illiterate Hindus. Here, you and your Padre will have their pants taken off because I know Bible scholarship very well. So O brown convert, stop being a white man’s slave and don’t beat drums of glory about another race that holds you in contempt.

      • Cynical

        So manusmriti is now a novel? Finding it too hot to handle, yeh! Thank heavens, you didn’t claim Manusmriti was written by Max Muller and it is a christian conspiracy. Poor Manu!

        • Indian Realist

          You clearly have no idea what Smritis are and how they differ from Shruti. It seems every monotheist in this world has declared himself an authority on Hinduism.

          This is what Wikipedia says about Manusmriti: “The text was never universally followed or acclaimed by the vast majority of Indians in their history; it came to the world’s attention through a late eighteenth-century translation by Sir William Jones, who mistakenly exaggerated both its antiquity and its importance.”

          • Cynical

            As desperate and insecured neo-hindus albeit patronisingly claim Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Pagan tribals and even atheists/agnostics as hindus, it appears silly to leave followers of Manu behind. I am a Manuist Hindu. You have know right to insult Manu. Manu baba ki jai ho!

            • Indian Realist

              Actually, it is the monotheists who suffer from insecurity and wont’ rest till they have made everybody in the world look and talk like them. They cannot tolerate people of different beliefs, different languages, different dress, different food. They begin to suffer from what Rajiv Malhotra calls “difference anxiety”. Heck, they even tell you to change your name to something like theirs if you convert. This insecurity makes them attack other people again and again who they perceive to be different than them.

            • cnm

              Cynical The escapist
              Hey you Escapist if you are not a Bastard and if your mother has not shared bed with anti-Hindus then come on join me on a debate and show me how and why Sikhs, Jains,Budhhists, animists are non-Hindus. Hey Kutte ki aulad , wine-bibber if you are a not an evader and not drunk then tell me why you ran away when we supplied you with names who proudly claim that they are Hindus and nothing else. Refer to Shlok and my answers to your question where you had asked us for names of Jains who call themselves Hindus. Just see how you gave us a slip when you were supplied with the names.You Marxist always shoot the messenger and run away with tail between legs when fail to answer any question put to you by your opponents. Shrimali did the same you being his aulad no different. Kutte ki aulad.

              • cnm

                @cynical

                You have not responded to my above comment. Shall then I construe that you are bastard who just hits and runs? Anyway, with this hope that one day you might suffer the bite of conscience and might take part in debate , I am still waiting for evidence from your side that will prove that Jains , Buddhists , sikhs and animists are non-Hindus. Besides, you have to supply me names of victims belonging to low caste Hindus who have been subjected to sexual exploitation by high caste Hindus. Let me remind you that your fantastic story of Phoolan Devi being a victim of sexual exploitation by high caste Hindus have been torn apart by Shlok. Therefore, do not maintain a stony silence and say something so that I can say that you are not a bastard.

    • Anonymous

      @sunil

      Do not teach us Manusmriti. It is better you concentrate on the Bible.

      • Anonymous

        @Sunil
        What is opinion about the Shloka (verse)
        Yatra Narystu Pujyante Ramante Tatra Devata. ?

        • Anonymous

          @Sunil

          Here is another verse 3/57 Manu Smriti
          “A family where women remain unhappy due to misdeeds of their men is bound to be destroyed. And a family where women are always happy is bound to prosper forever.”

          • Anonymous

            @Sunil

            Throw that Manu away whom you find abusive against and offensive towards woman.I do not care but what about the Manu who write the verses give in preceding comments.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, 1st of all, you have to understand the very background of all this. The first flaw is that there is no evidence whatsoever that there was any such thing as Aryan Invasion or Migration theory. There is no evidence to suggest that such persons came from whatsoever place and uprooted the local culture and imposed theirs. It was like these persons created this theory and then began to search the scriptures for back up. Anything that they could find, they began to offer this as evidence to back up their theory. So if Indra is fighting with darkness, then these people say this must be the Dravidians. Think about it, it is very stupid. Hindu scriptures are full of knowledge associated with light, with the sun. Now if you use that to substantiate fictitious theories, it is insane. This is the entire background of this. If you are not familiar with it, then you can go on giving whatever references you wish to, but it will ultimately fail. If you give us a reference from a 14th century European intellectual that the earth was flat and then use it to give other ‘evidences’ then surely it will not stand scrutiny. It is important that you should remember that the grandfather of this AIT, Max Mueller himself backtracked towards the end of his life. He mentioned that Arya cannot be regarded as race. Another doyen of the AIT,who spent bulk of her life arguing and arguing that Aryan Invasion took place, the one and only Romila Thapar, has also watered down by saying that it is only Aryan migration. Of course, when you hold up to your ‘prized’ theories for so long, it is very difficult to give it up. So, many persons whom you have quoted are people who have been bound and associated with such motivated and ignorant scholars such as Mueller, Caldwell and Thapar. You mentioned Witzel but he also swears by Thapar. Of course, our country may be having a Hindu majority in name but in reality since the time that Nehru surrendered the education portfolio to a leftist crackpot, Humayun Kabir, these people have had a picnic pushing through their theories. But as I have said they are baseless to the core. If at all they are still being taught, it clearly shows the distorted version of our secularism. Scholars, researchers, academics, anthropolists, archaeologists and historians have challenged all these leftist historians to with all their pet theories but they have not bothered to respond. In fact, so conclusive has this battle began that you may not be aware but anyone still believing in this baseless Aryan – Dravidian theory is immediately asked what is the evidence that he has to say that that this actually happened. So, you have to keep yourself abreasted of all the developments.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, don’t you think odd that when we have to give references of violence or abuse of women in the Quran or Bible, we can come up with hundreds and hundreds of references from their scriptures. But when it comes to caste discrimination in the Vedas, everyone jumps to just the Purushsukta of Rig Veda. And then jump on to Manu Samhita, even though they know very well that Manu Samhita is a not a Veda. Once again, I am pasting you from Agniveer’s article, ‘There is no caste discrimination in the Vedas’ because I doubt it you will bother to open the link. Read it

      In articles published so far in this series, we have seen how misleading have been the false stories of Aryan Invasion and subjugation of natives as slaves indulged in menial jobs. On contrary, we have seen the Vedas uphold highest dignity of labor. We have also seen that Daas/ Dasyu or Rakshas which are interpreted as natives or slaves of Aryans, are actually synonyms of criminals. Any civilized society has to keep these criminals in check.

      We have also seen that Vedas consider all the four Varnas including Shudra as Arya and gives them utmost respect.

      It is unfortunate that in this country of ours, where Vedas were the foundation of our culture, we forgot these original lessons of Vedas and got trapped in a variety of misconceptions regarding birth-based caste system and discrimination of people born in certain castes collectively known as Shudras.

      The misleading theories of communists and biased indologists have already caused a great damage to our society and have sown seeds of differences. It is unfortunate that so-called Dalits consider themselves outcaste and hence we fail to unite together for prosperity and security. The only solution is to go back to the roots – the Vedas – and rebuild our understanding of our relationships with each other.

      In this article, we shall evaluate the reality of caste system in Vedas and actual meaning of Shudra.

      1.

      As discussed in the first article “Vedas and Shudra”, there is absolutely no element of hatred or discrimination in Vedas regarding any person – be he or she a Brahmin, Vaishya, Kshatriya or Shudra.

      2.

      The concept of caste is relatively new. Vedas contain no word that can be considered a synonym for ‘caste’. The two words commonly considered to mean ‘caste’ are Jaati and Varna. However the truth is that, all the three mean completely different things.

      Caste is a European innovation having no semblance in Vedic culture.

      Jaati
      Jaati means a classification based on source of origin. Nyaya Sutra states “Samaanaprasavaatmika Jaatih” or those having similar birth source form a Jaati.

      An initial broad classification made by Rishis is 4-fold: Udbhija (coming out of ground like plants), Andaja (coming out of eggs like birds and reptiles), Pindaja (mammals) and Ushmaj (reproducing due to temperature and ambient conditions like virus, bacteria etc).

      Similarly, various animals like elephant, lion, rabbits etc form different ‘Jaati’. In same manner, entire humanity forms one ‘Jaati’. A particular Jaati will have similar physical characteristics, cannot change from one Jaati to another and cannot cross-breed. Thus Jaati is creation of Ishwar or God.

      Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra are no way different Jaati because there is no difference in source of birth or even physical characteristics to differentiate between them.

      Later, word ‘Jaati’ started being used to imply any kind of classification. Thus in common usage, we call even different communities as different ‘Jaati’. However that is merely convenience of usage. In reality, all humans form one single Jaati.

      Varna
      The actual word used for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra is ‘Varna’ and not Jaati.

      The word ‘Varna’ is used not only for these four, but also for Dasyu and Arya.

      ‘Varna’ means one that is adopted by choice. Thus, while Jaati is provided by God, ‘Varna’ is our own choice.

      Those who choose to be Arya are called ‘Arya Varna’. Those who choose to be Dasyu become ‘Dasyu Varna’. Same for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra.

      That is why Vedic Dharma is called ‘Varnashram Dharma’. The word Varna itself implies that this is based on complete freedom of choice and meritocracy.

      3.

      Those involved in intellectual activities have chosen ‘Brahmin Varna’. Those into defense and warfare are ‘Kshatriya Varna’. Those in economics and animal rearing are ‘Vaishya Varna’ and those involved in other support functions are “Shudra Varna”. They refer merely to various choices of professions and have nothing to do with any Jaati or birth.

      4.

      Often mantras of Purush Sukta are cited to prove that Brahmins originated from Mouth, Kshatriya from hands, Vaishya from thighs and Shudras from legs of God. Thus these varnas are birth-based. However nothing could be more deceptive. Let us see why:

      a. Vedas describe God to be shapeless and unchangeable. How can such a God take shape of a gigantic person if He is shapeless. Refer Yajurved 40.8.

      b. If indeed this were true, this would defy the theory of Karma of Vedas. Because as per Theory of Karma, one’s family of birth can change as per his or her deeds. So one born in Shudra family can take birth as king’s son in next birth. But if Shudras are born from feet of God, how can same Shudra again take birth from hands of God?

      c. Soul is timeless and never born. So soul can have no Varna. It is only when it takes birth as human that it has a chance to opt a Varna. Then what is meant by a Varna coming from one part of God’s body? If Soul did not take birth from God’s body, then does it mean body of soul is prepared from God’s body parts? But as per Vedas, even nature is eternal. And same atoms recycle among various humans. So it is technically impossible for any one taking birth from God’s body, even if we assume God to be having a body.

      d. The said Purush Sukta is in 31st Chapter of Yajurved, apart from Rigved and Atharvaved with some variations. In Yajurved it is 31.11. To see what it actually means, let us look at the previous mantra 31.10.
      It asks a question – Who is mouth? Who is hand? Who is thigh and who is leg?

      The next mantra gives the answer – Brahmin is mouth. Kshatriya is hand. Vaishya is thigh and Shudra becomes the legs.

      Note that the mantra does not say that Brahmin “takes birth” from mouth…It says Brahmin “is” mouth. Because if the mantra would mean “takes birth” it would not answer the question in previous mantra “Who is mouth?”

      For example, if I ask “Who is Dashrath?”, an answer like “Rama is born from Dashrath” would be meaningless!

      The actual meaning is:
      In society, Brahmins or intellectuals form the brain or head or mouth that think and speak. Kshatriya or defense personnel form the hands that protect. Vaishya or producers and businessmen form the thigh that support and nurture (note that thigh bone or femur produces blood and is strongest bone). In Atharvaveda, instead of Uru or Thigh, the word “Madhya” is used meaning that it denotes also the stomach and central part of body.

      Shudra or Labor force form the legs that lay the foundation and make the body run.

      The next mantras talk of other parts of this body like mind, eyes etc. The Purush Sukta describes the origin and continuation of creation including human society and states ingredients of a meaningful society.

      Thus, its a pity that such a beautiful allegorical description of society and creation is distorted to mean something that is completely contrary to Vedic ethos.

      Even the Brahman texts, Manusmriti, Mahabharat, Ramayan and Bhagvat do not state anything even close to crazy hypothesis of God creating Brahmins by tearing of flesh from his mouth, Kshatriya from flesh of hands and so on.

      5.

      It is thus obvious why Brahmins are accorded high respect in Vedas. This is same as what happens even in modern society. Scholars and experts get our respect because they form the direction-providers for entire humanity. However, as we have discussed in previous articles, dignity of labor is equally emphasized in Vedas and hence there is no element of discrimination.

      6.

      In Vedic culture, everyone is considered to be born as Shudra. Then based on his or her education, one becomes a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya. This completion of education is considered to be a second birth. Hence these three Varnas are called “Dwija” or twice-born. But those who remain uneducated for whatever reasons are not discarded from society. They continue as Shudra and perform support-activities for the society.

      7.

      A son of Brahmin, if he fails to complete his education, becomes a Shudra. Similarly, son of a Shudra or even a Dasyu, if he completes his education can become a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya. This is pure meritocracy. The way degrees are accorded today, Yajnopaveet was provided in Vedic system. Further, non-compliance with the code of conduct for each Varna could result in taking away of the Yajnopaveet.

      8.

      Many examples exist of change of Varnas in Vedic history.

      a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.

      b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)

      c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.

      d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting.
      (Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)
      Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?

      e. Nabhag, soon of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)

      f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)

      g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)

      h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.

      i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.

      j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)

      k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.

      Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.

      l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin.

      m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.

      n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.

      o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal

      p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.

      q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire.

      9.

      The word “Shudra” has come in Vedas around 20 times. Nowhere has it been used in a derogatory manner. Nowhere it mentions that Shudras are untouchable, birth-based, disallowed from study of Vedas, lesser in status than other Varnas, disallowed in Yajnas.

      10.

      In Vedas, Shudra means a hard-working person. (Tapase Shudram – Yajurved 30.5). And that is why Purush Sukta calls them as foundation of entire human society.

      11.

      Since the four Varnas refer to 4 kinds of activities by choice, as per Vedas, the same person exhibits characteristics of the 4 varnas in different situations. Thus everyone belongs to all the 4 varnas. However, for simplicity sake, we refer to the predominant profession to be the representative Varna.

      And hence, all humans should strive to be all the 4 Varnas to best of their capabilities, as per Vedic wisdom. This is the essence of Purush Sukta.

      The Rishis like Vasisth, Vishwamitra, Angira, Gautam, Vaamdeva and Kanva exhibited traits of all the four Varnas. They discovered meanings of Vedic mantras, destroyed Dasyus, did manual labor and indulged in wealth management for social welfare.
      We should also emulate the same.

      In summary, we see that the Vedic society considers all humans to be one single Jaati or race, upholds the dignity of labor and provides equal opportunity for all humans to adopt the Varna of their choice.

      There is no element of birth-based discrimination of any manner in the Vedas.

      May we all unite together as one integrated family, reject the last element of birth-based discrimination of any manner and embrace each other as brothers and sisters.

      May we also thwart the designs of those who want to mislead us by making baseless claims of casteism in Vedas and destroy the criminals aka Dasyu/Daas/Rakshas.

      May we all come under the shelter of Vedas and work together to strengthen the humanity as one single family.

      There is no caste-system in Vedas.

    • karan

      @sunil
      “All scripts are the production of human brain, so the word apaurushaya becomes meaningless.’
      NOT REALLY.
      Human brain cannot acquire the vision of Veda without the grace of God this is the meaning of “apaurushaya.”
      Read Gita ,do you think these scripts are the production of human brain,
      If yes that you will be meaningless.

      • cnm

        @sunil

        The Vedas referred to as Apaurusheya because they are not created by any man or Purush. The rishis who realized the meaning and import of the Vedic Mantras were Mantardrashtars the seers of the Mantaras. They were however not the creators of the Mantras. That is why the Vedas are Apaurashaye not created by Purush. On the contrary abrahmic religions are created by men like Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. So they are paurusheya.

        • cnm

          @Sunil

          Do not take inspiration from jokers like Witzel to prove the AIT. They are rather notorious as anti-Hindus and are more propagandists than intellectuals. So better adduce evidence from the Hindu literature and archaeology or get lost.

    • som

      @sunil
      When the first time Aryan started ruling India 187 B.C.(shunga dynasty, gupta dynasty)……….!!!
      Do you think this absurd statement would be taken for granted, in which books of your library (dpt of history , mumbai university) this statement has been written.

      • som

        “Devanagari” is a compound word with two roots: deva means “deity”, and nagari means “city”. Together it implies a script that is both religious as well as urbane or sophisticated.

        • nitha

          The name Devanāgarī is made up of two Sanskrit words: deva, which means god, brahman or celestial, and nāgarī, which means city. The name is variously translated as “script of the city”, “heavenly/sacred script of the city” or “[script of the] city of the Gods or priests”.

    • raj

      @sunil
      FIRST HINDU ( YOU MAY CALL HIM ARYAN FOR HIS CHARACTERISTICS AND NOT FOR RACE) RULER OF INDIA
      Bharata was a legendary emperor of India, and is referred to in Hindu and Jain theology. He was son of King Dushyanta of Hastinapura and Queen Śakuntalā and thus a descendant of the Lunar Dynasty of the Kshatriya Varna. Bharata had conquered all of Greater India, uniting it into a single political entity which was named after him as “Bhāratavarṣa”.
      According to ancient Indian epic legend of the Mahabharata as well as the numerous puranas and diverse Indian history, Bharat Empire included the whole territory of the Indian subcontinent, including parts of present day Pakistan, Afghanistan, China, Iran, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Turkmenistan, North-west Tibet, Nepal and Bangladesh.
      This represented as the ideal sample of great empires, which was dominated by harmony, wealth and prosperity.
      There are many references to “Bharata Chakravarti” in the sacred Jain texts. He conquered all of the earth and the worlds above and reached the top of “Meru” or “Sumeru” mountain (the center of the world and tallest mountain) and placed a flag. But upon reaching the top he saw numerous such flags of world conquerors before him. This made him feel very insignificant and he took the diksha and attained nirvana.
      Bhārat (along with India) is the official English name of Republic of India and Bhārata Gaṇarājyam is the official Sanskrit name of the country, while Bhārat Ganarājya is the official Hindi name.

  48. Vineet

    Friends, just keep noting how our Converted Christian friend Sunil will keep focus on undermining our philosophy while behaving as if Christianity is perfect. Many of you are very learned, it will be good to give him some questions on bible, their god, godson etc., lets question his beliefs

  49. Shlok

    @Sunil, following from Agniveer’s ‘Vedas, Aryans and Dravidians’ part 1

    Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT), which today having been rechristened as Indo – Aryan Migration (IAM) theory (given that the original position is no longer tenable) is the largest myth that was ever propagated by historians with vested interests that still retain vestiges to their Western paymasters. In this post the scope is restricted to visiting Veda samhitas and Tamil literary works from the Sangam period that render the AIT / IAM theories redundant. This post will also show the integrated, continuous nature of the deities that were worshipped from the now parched Saraswati river basin and the Vaigai river basin in Madura, Tamilnadu. We are taking Tamil as representative of Dravidian languages because, unlike the other 3 Southern states, it is in Tamil Nadu that the political and societal idea of Aryan / Dravidian divide is more vocally and visibly pronounced.

    Note: We are merely exploring historical and literary traditions here and do not attempt to analyze any method of worship.

    The hoax of Aryan-Dravidian divide

    Rig Veda does not give even a shred of evidence of any invasion or migration to have taken place from outside or the Rishis of Vedas having been part of expeditions into India from somewhere else. But Indologists and apologists of AIT / IAM use Rig Veda to try to establish their standpoint.

    They use the invocation of Indra by Angiras family of Rishis to slay the likes of Dasyus and Panis as evidences that an invading Aryan army slaughtered the aborigines of India that were Dravidians.

    Before we move ahead let us establish what Dravida means.

    In Sanskrit, it loosely means liquid like or watery. The root word for this is Drava in Sanskrit.

    And importantly, in Tamil, the word Dravidian or Dravida hardly gets mentioned in the Sangam literature of Tamils.

    The corpus of Sangam literature is the most authentic chronicling of the life, times, theology, events, wars, business, natural calamities, Tamil grammar etc of the Tamils starting from 600 BC to 200 AD. To put it in another way, if hypothetically the invading Aryans pushed the Dravidians South of Vindyas and killed many Dravidians (based on Rig Veda), the earliest Tamil literary works obviously ought to have mentioned the mayhem in the so called Dravidian literary works of the Sangam age.

    The Tamil literary works started using the word “Dravida” only in the 9th century AD but that too only in the context of linguistics. And a Tamil lexicon of the 9th century AD called “Senthan Divakaram” uses Dravidam to denote Tamil.

    This itself is sufficient to realize that the whole Dravida story is a modern hoax without any historical basis. In fact it was only in late 19th century that Robert Caldwell, a proclaimed evangelist who came to India for sole purpose of proselytization and spreading Christianity, first used the word ‘Dravidian’ to further his agenda. And then the term took political colors. And once politicized, it is always in benefit of all political forces to keep the myth alive so that they can cook their rotis.

  50. Shlok

    @Sunil part 2 continuing from Vedas, Aryan and Dravidian

    The hoax of evidence from Rig Veda

    Now, let us move to understanding how the AIT / IAM apologists use Dasyus to claim that invading Aryans slaughtered the so called native Dasyus and let us also explore a few questions. The apologists point to Rig Veda 10/48, where, Indra is seen to have destroyed Dasyus, Vrtras and Panis with his might, captured wealth and also mentions that those in his company will not be felled.

    But what the apologists do not delve into is to understand the characterization of the likes of Dasyus , Vrtras and Panis (the last 2 being a kind of Dasyu) in Rig Veda. Who are the Dasyus?

    When we look up Rig Veda 1/33/1 – 10, it becomes obvious that the wealth that Indra captures is actually knowledge.

    RV/1/33/1 ends with “gavam ketam param avarjate nah”. It means supreme knowledge of the luminous cows. And the whole verse means – come let us go seeking the cows to Indra, it is he that increases the thought in us, for us, he releases supreme knowledge of the luminous cows.

    Let us first understand, in Vedas, those that do the Soma pressing or other Vedic sacrifices for divinities are called yajyu. The divinities to whom these sacrifices are offered are called yajata. The yaju by virtue of his goodwill is sukratu. Sukratus by virtue of their works find the “divine word” and having found the divine word, a sukratu becomes the singer of the word.

    But Dasyu is the opposite principle of both Sukratu and Yajyu. Dasyu is also called “A”yajyu (opposite of Yajyu).And interestingly an Ayajyu is a hater of the singer of the divine word (this quality is Ayajyu called brahmadvisa) and IMPORTANTLY an Ayajyu is ANASA (has no mouth to speak) and has no mental faculties (Amanyamana). And across the Vedas the Dasyus like Panis and Vritras withhold the kine (the kine are not physical cows and sheep but they point to knowledge) and this kine has to be forcefully extracted with Indra’s help by man. And in another place in RV, it is stated that Panis (a type of Dasyu), plunders and steals the cows and hides them in his cave. With the help of Indra the knowledge, the luminous cows are secured by man. RV/6/51/14 calls Indra to destroy the Panis and equates Panis to wolf.

    And let us also look at a few more items that Indra won by destroying Dasyus, as per western indologists.

    RV/3/34/7-10:

    7 Lord of the brave, Indra who rules the people gave freedom to the Gods by might and battle. Wise singers glorify with chanted praises these his achievements in Vivasvan’s dwelling.

    8 Excellent, Conqueror, the victory-giver, the winner of the light and Godlike Waters,He who hath won this broad earth and this heaven, -in Indra they rejoice who love devotions.

    9 He gained possession of the Sun and Horses, Indra obtained the Cow who feedeth many.Treasure of gold he won; he smote the Dasyus, and gave protection to the Aryan colour.

    10 He took the plants and days for his possession; he gained the forest trees and air’s mid-region.Vala he cleft, and chased away opponents: thus was he tamer of the overweening.

    Indra secures forest trees, mid air, plants and days.

    Now, if Dasyus were HUMAN non-Aryan tribes, how come Indra secures the DAYS and MID-AIR from mortals?

    The allegory of Dasyus continues in the Rig Veda, where, Indra then actually chases Dasyus out of heaven and earth by the power of his thunderbolt. Indra’s greatness keeps increasing and the luminosity of Indra leaves Dayus with nowhere to hide. Indra recovers the lost Sun and as this Sun rises, it illuminates the caves where Vala (a type of Dasyus) has hidden the luminous cows.

    So we clearly have a scenario that completely contradicts the possibility of Dasyus ever being Dravidian tribes that Indra destroyed.

    The Rig Veda based attempts to prop up the non-existent AIT/IAM falls flat. Rest assured Dravidians (of AIT/IAM) do have noses and are able to speak and are intelligent people unlike the Dasyus of Rig Veda.

    Evidence from Sangam Literature

    Now let us travel to Tamil / Dravidian land to see if Tamils were really people that were completely different from the so called Aryans and if they showed signs of being brutalized by invading Aryans.

    While there are extensive works that fall under the Sangam literature, let us pick some of the most important works to see what the Dravidians worshipped as their deities.

    It is important to note that Sangam literature categorizes land into Mullai (forests), Kurinchi (hills), Marudam (Farm lands), Neidal (Sea Coast) and Palai (Barren).

    Tolkappaiyam mentions the following as the presiding deities of these lands – Mullai: Tirumal (Vishnu), Kurinchi: Seyon (or Kumara / Murugua/Kartikeya), Marudam: Vendan (Indra), Neidal: Varunan (Varuna) and Palai: Korravai (Shakti).

    Another key Sangam literary work called Purananuru talks about the legend of Lord Shiva destroying the three cities (Tripura Samhara). Shiva is said to have taken the lofty Meru mountain in his hand as bow and with the terrific serpent as bow string and a single arrow destroyed the cities sending them into into flames. And the deity of Seyon (Kumara / Kartikeya), is repeatedly seen across Purananuru and Ahananuru as being the progeny of Shiva.

    This ties us back to Agni,the Kumara, template of the Puranic Kartikeya, being an aspect of Rudra.

    Some AIT / IAM apologists try to make Shiva to be an exclusive Dravidian deity to keep the theory running.

    Shiva of Puranas is derived from aspects of Rudra of Vedas.

    In Vedas, if you delve deeper into attributes of Rudra, across Rig Veda or the Rudram / Chamakam sections of Yajur Veda, a common set of attributes is easy to be seen.

    And Shiva is all but one aspect of Rudra that is mentioned in Rudram / Chamakam. While the usage of Rudra has been replaced at large by Shiva, the attributes of Vedic Shiva / Rudra and those described in works like Periya Puranam of Tamil literature are the same.

    In places like Tiruvannamalai or Chaidmabaram, in addition to Thevaram, Rudram / Chamakam is also recited, if Shiva of Tamils and Shiva or Puranas / Vedas are different.

    If anything, the Taittriya Samhita of Yajur Veda (where Rudram / Chamakam occurs) is a tradition that is living primarily in Tamil Nadu, AP and Karataka, today.

    Conclusion

    From this small attempt to put things in perspective, it is very easy to understand that the AIT/IAM, based on Rig Veda and the premier Tamil Sangam literary works is a farce. If anything, it is easy to see that this great land has been inhabited by people that belong to the same Vedic family.

    Differences based on linguistics, skin color, local culture, cuisines etc are being played up by vested interests today, as it were done 150 years ago.

    To repeat it, this land was inhabited by followers of the same Vedic Dharma until the early part of last millennium.

    P.S: We have not even touched the theological works of Alwars (Vaishnavites) and Nayanmars (Shaivites) to establish the oneness of the Vedic dharma of this land. If one reviews the entire hoax of AIT and Dravida-Arya divide would fall flat as creative fantasies of a drowsy mind after an extra peg!

  51. Well done, Shlok! You’ve given Sunil a run for his money with your well-crafted arguments. Christians and their scholars, as far as I know, want to undermine the roots of Sanatana Dharma, the Vedas, by their warped interpretation. Your rebuttals are highly appreciative.

  52. som

    @sunil
    Give the reference of history book on which
    it has been written that Pushyamitre Sunga(187 B.C.) was the first Aryan ruler,
    ot get lost.

  53. sunil

    Origin of the surname Sunga

    It is written in the Harivamsa Purana for Pusyamitra Sunga that an Audbhijja Kaashyapa Dwija Senani will spread the tradition of Yajna again.[7] In this line of Harivamsa, the word Audbhijja (ओद्भिज्ज) means plant-born. Thus according to The Harivamsa Purana, A plant-born Kaashyapa Brahmin General will restore the Vedic tradition. In Aryan Dynasties, there was a tradition to derive their dynastic names from the various objects of nature like the Sun (Suryavanshi), the Moon(Chandravanshi), Fire(Agnivanshi), Vegetation (Pallava, Kadamba) etc. According to Dr. Hemchandjra Raychaudhari, Sunga Dynasty took their surname from a tree.[8] He further gave the example of Indian dynasties like Kadamba (a tree name) of Banavasi, Pallava(Sanskrit word for “branch and twig”) of Kanchi and Narikela-Kramukanvaya (Narikela a Sanskrit word for the Coconut) of Champa. The meaning of “Sunga” is the fig tree in Sanskrit. So according to him, Sungas took their dynastic name from the fig tree.[9]

    • raj

      @sunil
      You are wrong.
      THE FIRST HINDU KING ( YOU MAY CALL HIM ARYAN FOR HIS CHARACTERISTICS NOT FOR RACE) WAS KING BHARATA.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, who is this Dr Raychaudhari? Why should we trust in his judgement? You have been saying according to Witzel, according to Tilak, but Harivamsa Purana there is no mention of Pushyamitra. Only Dr Raychaudhari thinks this should be. And what exactly is the relevance?

  54. sunil

    som here are some references for shunga
    1)mahabhasya- by patanjali
    2)harivanshapuran
    3)pravar khanda of apastamba
    4)asoka and decline of mauryans by romila thapar
    5)raychaudhari hemchandra- indian culture vol IV 1938
    ALSO SEARCH ON NET THERE ARE SO MANY

    • raj

      NO ANY REFERENCE PROVES THAT HE WAS FIRST AYAYAN RULLER.

    • ravi

      @sunil
      It is just Christian propaganda.
      Aryan is a adjective term.It does not represent any race,creed and not even locality,it is Sanskrit its simple meaning is Noble.
      And about Sanskrit ,it is also a Sanskrit adjective term which means refined,highly elaborated ,suitable for religious discourse,
      And about your Christian missionaries what you have done in Rawanda
      ( hutu -tutsi massacare -genocide of 2,50 million and whole country converted into Christian country )this thing you want to do in India through Aryan Dravidian agenda,
      You are playing in the hand of your western masters.

    • karan

      @sunil
      The English word “Aryan” is borrowed from the Sanskrit* word arya meaning ‘Noble**’ it was used initially as a national name to designate the worshippers of the Hindu deities*** and especially Indra**** according to Brahmanical principles (performance of sacrifice, Yajna).
      According to Swami Vivekananda:
      The Aryans were kind and generous, and in their hearts which were large and unbounded as the ocean and in their brains gifted with superhuman genius

      Swami Dayananda’s creation, the Arya Samaj, is a unique component in Hinduism. The Arya Samaj unequivocally condemns idol-worship, animal sacrifices, ancestor worship, pilgrimages, priestcraft, offerings made in temples, the caste system, untouchability, child marriages and discrimination against women on the grounds that all these lacked Vedic sanction. The Arya Samaj discourages dogma and symbolism and encourages skepticism in beliefs that run contrary to common sense and logic. To many people, the Arya Samaj aims to be a “universal church” based on the authority of the Vedas.

      Among Swami Dayananda’s immense contributions is his championing of the equal rights of women – such as their right to education and reading of Indian scriptures – and his translation of the Vedas from Sanskrit to Hindi so that the common man may be able to read the Vedas. The Arya Samaj is rare in Hinduism in its acceptance of women as leaders in prayer meetings and preaching.

      Hitler wanted a pure Aryan race, people with blue eyes, blonde hair, muscular (in the case of men) and beautiful (the case of women). He wanted all Germans to be racially pure because he wanted to start his own “super” perfect race, even though he did not have blonde hair or blue eyes! Also there was a lot of speculation about him being homosexual, even though he sent homosexuals to concentration camps etc.For men it was essential to be fit for military service, while women of child-bearing age were expected to be very fertile..

      So ,there are so many definition are available,all contradict each other.But it is clear that eastern concept
      of aryan is related to virtue(not race like western concept according to Hitler).
      In the light of western concept( according to Hitler)Aryan invasion theory was created.
      In the light of eastern concept{according to Swami Vivekananda beliver of monism (vedanta)who is not very much fond of idle worship ,Swami Dayananda,against idle worship }Aryan invasion theory could not be created.
      And one thing is clear ,it is sanskrit word .Sanskrit(see the footnote * )is also not related to
      any locality(as all other language deserve),but related to virtue called dev-bhasha- language of hindu -deity (see footnate ***)
      So,aryan invasion theory is a conspiracy against Dravidian( people or peoples or is a term used to refer to the diverse groups of people who natively speak languages belonging to the Dravidian language family. Populations of speakers of around 220 million are found mostly in Southern India. Other Dravidian people are found in parts of central India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and Pakistan. The most populous Dravidian people are the Telugus, Tamils, Kannadigas and the Malayalis. Smaller Dravidian communities with 1–5 million speakers are the Tuluvas, Gonds and Brahui.)

      *The Sanskrit verbal adjective sánskita- may be translated as “put together, constructed, well or completely formed; refined, adorned, highly elaborated”. It is derived from the root san-skar- “to put together, compose, arrange, prepare”, where san- “together” (as English same) and (s)kar- “do, make”.

      The term in the generic meaning of “made ready, prepared, completed, finished” is found in the Rigveda. Also in Vedic Sanskrit, as nominalized neuter sanskitám, it means “preparation, prepared place” and thus “ritual enclosure, place for a sacrifice”.

      As a term for “refined or elaborated speech” the adjective appears only in Epic and Classical Sanskrit, in the Manusmriti and in the Mahabharata. The language referred to as sa?sk?ta “the cultured language” has by definition always been a “sacred” and “sophisticated” language, used for religious and learned discourse in ancient India, and contrasted with the languages spoken by the people, prakrita- “natural, artless, normal, ordinary”.

      **Noble means person who posses Integrity(in thought and action with rationality),Chivalry,Courage &Self-sacrifice(for any good cause).

      ***Hindu deities:Within Hinduism a large number of personal gods (Ishvaras) are worshipped as murtis. These beings are significantly powerful entities known as devas. The exact nature of belief in regards to each deity varies between differing Hindu denominations and philosophies. Often these beings are depicted in humanoid or partially humanoid forms, complete with a set of unique and complex iconography in each case. The devas are expansions of Brahman into various forms, each with a certain quality.
      In the Rig Veda 33 devas are described, which are personifications of phenomena in nature.

      ****Indra : the King of the gods or Devas and Lord of Heaven or Svargaloka in Hindu mythology. He is also the God of War, Storms, and Rainfall and is associated with Vajrapani

  55. sunil

    som -this is for your reference about shunga (As you asked for), i will give you the list of books also saying the pushyamitra shunga was the first aryan , start rulling india in 187 B.C.this was the second time aryans started destroying indian culture and indian people, first time after their invasion in india, and second time when they became the supreme of India , actually you will get so many reference on net just follow what the scholars of history says and not what the bramins says. this is copy paste for you from one of the site
    THE founder of the dynasty Pushyamitra Sunga overthrew the Mauryas in 187 BC. After him there were nine other rulers. Among them Agnimitra, Vasumitra, Bhagvata and Devabhumi were the prominent ones. After the overthrow of Brihadrata Pushyamitra Sunga waged few wars to consolidate his position. Evidence shows that he defeated the Yavanas. This is confirmed by Patanjali’ Mahabashva. Later Vasumitra the grandson of Pushyamitra Sunga defeated the Yavanas. This is confirmed by Malavikaganimtriam and gargi samhita. Some scholars regard that the establishment of Sunga dynasty was symbolic of the Brahmanical reaction to the Mauryan bias towards Buddhism.

    Pushyamitra Sunga performed the Vedic sacrifices of asvamedha and the others like aginstoma, Rajasuya and vajpeiya. There was a high degree of tolerance prevailing during the period and some of the minor work of Sunga art are found at Mathura, Kausambi and Sarnath. The Sungas attempted to revive the caste system with the social supremacy of the Brahmins. This is more evident in the work of Manu wherein he emphasised on the higher position of the Brahmins in the society. The most significant development of the Sunga era was marked by various adjustment and adaptations leading to the emergence of mixed castes and the assimilation of the foreigners in Indian society. In the field of literature Sanskrit gradually gained ascendancy and became the language of the court. Patanjali was patronized by Pushyamitra Sunga and he was the second great grammarian of Sanskirt.

    • ravi

      @sunil
      YOU WILL GIVE ME THE LIST OF BOOKS SAYING THE PUSHYA MITRA SUNGA WAS THE FIRST ARYAN START RULING INDIA IN 187 B.C IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU.
      I AM GIVING THE LIST OF BOOKS SAYING THE WHAT VEDA SAYS
      ABOUT WOMEN.

      Women are accorded the greatest respect in Vedas. Still, ignorant semi-literate communists keep propagating the false propaganda that Vedas demean women. Presented here are verses from Vedas obtained from texts of most learned scholars in this field to establish the truth.

      Atharva Ved

      Atharva 11.5.18

      In this mantra of Brahmcharya Sukta, it is emphasized that girls too should train themselves as students and only then enter into married life. The Sukta specifically emphasizes that girls should receive the same level of training as boys.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 8

      Girls should train themselves to become complete scholars and youthful through Brahmcharya and then enter married life.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya, Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 413-414)

      Atharva 14.1.6

      Parents should gift their daughter intellectuality and power of knowledge when she leaves for husband’s home. They should give her a dowry of knowledge.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 8,9

      When girls ignore external objects and develops foresight and vibrant attitude through power of knowledge, she becomes provider of wealths of skies and earth. Then she should marry an eligible husband.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya, Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 654)

      Atharva 14.1.20

      Oh wife! Give us discourse of knowledge

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      The bride may please everyone at her husband’s home through her knowledge and noble qualities.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 660)

      Atharva 7.46.3

      Teach the husband ways of earning wealth

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      Protector of children, having definite knowledge, worth thousands of prayers and impressing all directions, O women, you accept prosperity. O wife of desrving husband, teach your husband to enhance wealth.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 804)

      Similar meaning

      (Book: Atharvaved ka subodh bhashya (7-10 chapters), Author: Sripad Damodar Satvalekar, Page 97)

      Atharva 7.47.1

      Oh woman! You are the keeper of knowledge of all types of actions (karma).

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      O woman, you provide us wealth and prosperity.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 804)

      Similar meaning:

      (Book: Atharvaved ka subodh bhashya (7-10 chapters), Author: Sripad Damodar Satvalekar, Page 98)

      Atharva 7.47.2

      Oh woman! You know everything. Please provide us strength of prosperity and wealth

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      O woman! You enhance our wealth and prosperity

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 805)

      Similar meaning:

      (Book: Atharvaved ka subodh bhashya (7-10 chapters), Author: Sripad Damodar Satvalekar, Page 98)

      Atharva 7.48.2

      Oh woman! Please provide us with wealth through your intellect

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      Scholarly, respectful, thoughtful, happy wife protects and enhances wealth and bring happiness in home.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 806)

      Similar meaning:

      (Book: Atharvaved ka subodh bhashya (7-10 chapters), Author: Sripad Damodar Satvalekar, Page 99)

      Atharva 14.1.64

      Oh woman! Utilize your vedic intellect in all directions of our home!

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      O bride! Reach the home of scholars and bring bliss and happiness by ruling your home

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 678)

      Atharva 2:36:5

      Oh bride! Step into the boat of prosperity and take your husband beyond the ocean of worldy troubles into realms of success

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 12, 13

      O bride! Step into the indestructible boat of prosperity and take your husband to shores of success.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 219)

      Atharva 1.14.3

      Oh groom! This bride will protect your entire family

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 13

      O groom! This bride is protector of your entire family. May she dwell in your home for a period and sow seeds of intellect.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 80-81)

      Atharva 2.36.3

      May this bride become the queen of the house of her husband and enlighten all.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 13

      Similar meaning as above

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 1, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 218)

      Atharva 11.1.17

      These women are pure, sacred and yajniya (as respected as yajna); they provide us with subjects, animals and food

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 13

      These women are pure, sacred, worth being worship, worth being served, of great character, scholarly. They have given subjects, animals and happiness to the entire society.

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 352)

      Atharva 12.1.25

      Oh motherland! Give us that aura which is present in girls

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 13

      May we have the same aura and prosperity as in women!

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 480)

      Atharva 12.2.31

      Ensure that these women never weep out of sorrow. Keep them free from all diseases and give them ornaments and jewels to wear.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 13-14

      Similar meaning

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 507)

      Atharva 14.1.20

      Hey wife! Become the queen and manager of everyone in the family of your husband.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 14

      Similar meaning

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 660)

      Atharva 14.1.50

      Hey wife! I am holding your hand for prosperity

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 14

      Similar meaning

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 672)

      Atharva 14.1.61

      Hey bride! You shall bring bliss to all and direct our homes towards our purpose of living

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 14

      Similar meaning

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 677)

      Atharva 14.2.71

      Hey wife! I am knowledgeable and you are also knowledgeable. If I am Samved then you are Rigved.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 14

      Similar meaning

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 708)

      Atharva 14.2.74

      This bride is illuminating. She has conquered everyone’s hearts!

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 14

      May the bride be victorious and prosperous!

      Similar meaning

      (Atharvaveda-Hindi Bhashya Part 2, Author: Kshemkarandas Trivedi, Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Delhi, Page 709)

      Atharva 7.38.4and 12.3.52

      Women should take part in the legislative chambers and put their views on forefront.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 23

      Rigved

      Rig 10.85.7

      Parents should gift their daughter intellectuality and power of knowledge when she leaves for husband’s home. They should give her a dowry of knowledge.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 9

      Rig 3.31.1

      The right is equal in the fathers property for both son and daughter

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 21

      Rig 10.159

      A women speaks after waking up in morning, “My destiny is as glorious as the rising sun. I am the flag of my home and society. I am also their head. I can give impressive discourses. My sons conquer enemies. My daughter illuminates the whole world. I myself am winner of enemies. My husband has infinite glory. I have made those sacrifices which make a king successful. I have also been successful. I have destroyed my enemies.”

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 24

      The sun has gone up; my prosperity and happiness also have mounted high. Quite sure, I have regained the love of my husband, triumphing over my rivals.

      I am the emblem, I am the head, I am supreme and now I dictate; my husband must conform to my will; rivals now I have none.

      My sons are destroyers of my enemies; my daughter is a queen; and I am victorious. My and my husband’s love has a wide reputation.

      O enlightened, I have offered that oblation which has been offered by the one, the most illustrious and thus I have become renowned and most powerful; I have freed myself from my rival damsels.

      I am free from rivals; I am now the destructress of rivals, victorious and triumphant; I have seized other’s glory as if it were the wealth of weaker dames, who do not endure long. I have gained victory over these my rivals, so that I have my imperial sway over this hero and his people.

      (Book: Rgveda Samhita, Vol XIII, Author: Swami Satya Prakash Saraswati & Satyakam Vidyalankar, Ved Pratishthana, New Delhi) Page 4697

      Appendix to above hymn (Page 4813) of same book:

      Saci is the Rsi as well as the devata of the hymn. Saci is the Queen-Empress of the State or the Queen on her own accounts in a democratic state (the lady-President, or the Lady-Prime Minister of the State). Her sons and daughters are also dedicated to the State.

      Rig ved 1.164.41

      One ved, two ved, or four ved along with ayurved, dhanurved, gandharved, aarthved etc in addition with education, kalp, grammar, nirukt, astrology, meters i.e the six vedaang should be attained by the clear-minded woman, which is equivalent to the crystal-clear water and spread this diversified knowledge among the people.

      (Book: Vagambhraniya, Author: Dr Priyamvada Vedbharti)

      O men and women! A scholarly woman who has practiced or teaches one, two or four Vedas or four Vedas and four upavedas, along with grammar, etymology etc and spreads knowledge to whole world and removes ignorance of people is source of happiness for entire world. A woman who studies and teaches all parts of Vedas brings progress to all human beings

      (Book: Rigveda Bhashyam, Part III, Author: Dayanand Saraswati,Vedic Yantralaya, Page 382,383)

      Rig ved 10.85.46

      Like wise in so many other mantras a woman has been presented to play an essential role in family and as wife. Similarly she has been given the lead stage in society works, in governmental organizations, and for ruling the nation is also mentioned inVedas.

      (Book: Vagambhraniya, Author: Dr Priyamvada Vedbharti)

      Rigevda contains several Suktas containing description of Usha as a God. This Usha is representation of an ideal woman. Please refer “Usha Devata” by Pt Sri Pad Damodar Satvalekar as part of “Simple Translation of Rigveda (Rigved ka subodh bhashya)”. Page 121 to 147 for summary of all such verses spread across entire Rigveda. In summary:

      Women should be brave (Page 122, 128)
      Women should be expert (Page 122)
      Women should earn fame (Page 123)
      Women should ride on chariots (Page 123)
      Women should be scholars (Page 123)
      Women should be prosperous and wealth (Page 125)
      Women should be intelligent and knowledgeable (Page 126)
      Women should be protector of family and society and get in army(Page 134, 136)
      Women should be illuminating (Page 137)
      Women should be provider of wealth, food and prosperity (Page 141- 146)

      Yajurved

      Yajur 20.9

      There are equal rights for men and women to get appointed as ruler.

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Chapter 1: Women in Vedic Dharma, Page 24

      Yajur 31.11

      In this mantra the Brahman, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra are there in each human body. Brahmin from the head, king from the shoulders, vaishya from the thigh, and shudra by feet. The progeny of the shudra through his karma(actions) can grow to be a Brahman.
      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Yajur 16.44
      There should me a women army. Let the women be encouraged to participate in war.

      (Book: Vagambhraniya, Author: Dr Priyamvada Vedbharti)

      Yajur ved 10.26

      In this mantra it is enforced that the wife of ruler should give education of politics to the others. Likewise the king do justice for the people, the queen should also justify her role.

      (Book: Vagambhraniya, Author: Dr Priyamvada Vedbharti)

      Yajur ved 30.15

      (Book: Vagambhraniya, Author: Dr Priyamvada Vedbharti)”

      (Book: Mera Dharma, Author: Priyavrat Vedavachaspati, Gurukul Kangri University)

      Yajur 16.44

      AND YOU WILL GIVE ME THE LIST OF BOOKS SAYING THE PUSHYA MITRA SUNGA WAS THE FIRST ARYAN START RULING INDIA IN 187 B.C
      IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU.

      • nitha

        @ravi
        Yes it is simply impossible to give reference of any history in which it was written that Pushyamitra Sunga was first Aryan starts ruling india in 187 B.C.
        This the main propaganda through distortion of History .
        Actually Aryan is a adjective term of Sanskrit language.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, same faulty comments like before. Do you think repeating a thing again and again makes it the truth? You are speaking to proud Hindus over here, not the bike hue secularists and Commies. We do not believe in the trash of the JNU ‘historians’. And pray could you tell me why this sudden fondness of PUshyamitra, what is your point?

  56. sunil

    nitha- gita added in mahahbharata, afterword may be written in brahmanic dynasties.there is lot of difference in the quality of sanskrit of mahabharata and sanskrit of gita. gita is easy to understand than mahabharata (now please do nt tell me it was made more complicated for god ganesha)and follows most of the rules of paninian sanskrit grammer. this indicates that gita wriiten after sanskrit got its paninian grammer.
    here is one reference-
    YUGANT (by marathi writer and aryan-dravid history scholar-mrs iravati karve) she suppoerted that gita added in mahabharata afterword .

    • Ramesh

      @sunil
      THE VAIDIC PERIOD (or Vedic age) was a period in history during which the Vedas, the oldest scriptures of Hinduism, were composed. The time span of the period is uncertain. Philological and linguistic evidence indicates that the Rigveda, the oldest of the Vedas, was composed roughly between 1700 and 1100 BCE, also referred to as the EARLY VAIDIC PERIOD.

      SAPTA VAIDIC RISHIS:-

      (1)KASYAP was an ancient sage (rishis), who is one of the Saptarshis in the present Manvantara; with others being Atri, Vashishtha, Vishvamitra, Gautama, Jamadagni, Bharadwaja
      He was also the author of the treatise Kashyap Samhita, or Braddha Jivakiya Tantra, which is considered, a classical reference book on Ayurveda especially in the fields of Ayurvedic pediatrics, gynecology and obstetrics.

      (2) ARTI or ARTRI is a legendary bard and scholar and was one of 9 Prajapatis, and a son of Brahma, said to be ancestor of some Brahmin, Prajapatis, kshatriya and Vaishya communities who adopt Atri as their gotra. Atri is the Saptarishis (Seven Great Sages Rishi) in the seventh, i.e. the present Manvantara.

      (3)VAISHIST is one of the Saptarishis (Seven Great Sages Rishi) in the seventh, i.e. the present Manvantara. Vashista is a manasputra of God Brahma. He had in his possession the divine cow Kamadhenu, and Nandini her child, who could grant anything to their owners.

      Vashistha, as one of 9 Prajapatis, is credited as the chief author of Mandala 7 of the Rigveda. Vashistha and his family are glorified and extolling their role in the Battle of the Ten Kings, making him the only mortal besides Bhava to have a Rigvedic hymn dedicated to him. Another treatise attributed to him is “Vashistha Samhita” – a book on the Vedic system of electional astrology.

      (4)BRAHMARSHI VISWAMITRA is one of the most venerated rishis or sages of ancient times in India. He is also credited as the author of most of Mandala 3 of the Rigveda, including the GAYATRI MANTRA. The Puranas mention that only 24 rishis since antiquity have understood the whole meaning of, and thus wielded the whole power of, the Gayatri Mantra.

      (5)GAUTAM MAHARSHI is one of the Saptarishis (Seven Great Sages Rishi of the current Manvantara (seventh). He was one of the Maharishis of Vedic times, known to have been the discoverer of Mantras — ‘Mantra-drashtaa’, in Sanskrit. The Rig Veda has several suktas (Sanskrit: ‘hymns’) that go with his name. He was the son of Rahugana, belonging to the line of Angiras. The Devi Bhagavatam says that the river Godavari is so named because of its association with Gautama. He had two sons by name Vamadeva and Nodhas, both themselves discoverers of Mantras. There is a hymn called Bhadra in the Sama Veda which again is ascribed to Gautama Maharishi.

      (6)JAMADGNI is one of the Saptarishis (Seven Great Sages Rishi) in the seventh, current Manvantara, and father of Parashurama, the sixth incarnation of Vishnu. He was a descendant of the sage Bhrigu, one of the Prajapatis created by Brahma, the God of Creation. Jamadagni had five children with wife Renuka, the youngest of whom was Parashurama, an avatar of Lord Vishnu. Jamadagni was well versed in the scriptures and weaponry without formal instruction.

      (7)BHARATDWAJA also spelled Bhardwaj , was one of the greatest Hindu sages (Maharishis) descendant of Rishi Angirasa, whose accomplishments are detailed in the Puranas. He is one of the Saptarshis (Seven Great Sages or Rishis) in the present Manvantara; with others being Atri, Vashishtha, Agastya, Gautama, Jamadagni, Kashyapa.
      Bharadvāja Bārhaspatya is the progenitor of the Bhāradvāja family and the family is attributed as the composers of Sixth Maṇḍala of the Ṛgveda. Maṇḍala is known as the Bhāradvāja Family Book as all its 75 hymns are composed by a member of this family over several centuries. He is believed to be a contemporary of King Bhārata. Maharṣi Bharadvāja and his descendants were respected and powerful priests-like ṛṣi of several clans/dynasties of the Puru tribe, such as the Bhāratas and the Pañcālas.
      Sage Bharadvāja was a sage of the Vedic times. He attained extraordinary scholarship. He had the great power of meditation. He is also the author of Āyurveda. His Āśrama still exists at the holy Prayag (Allahabad).
      After the end of the Vedic period, the Mahajanapadas period in turn gave way to the Maurya Empire (from ca. 320 BCE), the golden age of classical Sanskrit literature.

      Vyasa is a central and revered figure in most Hindu traditions. He is also sometimes called VEDA VYASA , (the one who classified the Vedas into four parts) or Krishna Dvaipayana (referring to his complexion and birthplace) who was born in Damauli of Tanahu district, Nepal. It is clearly written in ancient religious books and “Shastra” and the ancient cave is still there in Nepal where Vyasa created the “Mahabharata” and other epics. He is the author of the Mahabharata, as well as a character in it. He is considered to be the scribe of both the Vedas and Puranas. Vyasa is a kala-Avatar or part-incarnation of the God Vishnu. Vyasa was sometimes conflated by some Vaishnavas with Badarayana, the compiler of the Vedanta Sutras. Vyāsa is also considered to be one of the seven Chiranjivins (long lived, or immortals), who are still in existence according to general Hindu belief. He is also the fourth member of the Rishi Parampara of the Advaita Guru Paramparā of which Adi Shankara is the chief proponent.
      The festival of Guru Purnima is dedicated to him. It is also known as Vyasa Purnima for it is the day believed to be both his birthday and the day he divided the Vedas.

      Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition alone,and a literary tradition set in only in POST VAIDIC TIME. Despite the difficulties in dating the period, the Vedas can safely be assumed to be several thousands of years old. The associated culture, sometimes referred to as Vedic civilization, was probably centered early on in the northern and northwestern parts of the Indian subcontinent, but has now spread and constitutes the basis of contemporary Indian culture.

      After the end of the Vedic period, the Mahajanapadas period in turn gave way to the Maurya Empire (from ca. 320 BCE), the golden age of classical Sanskrit literature.

      http://www.indianetzone.com/56/literature_during_mauryan_empire.htm

      Writing appears in India around the 3rd century BC in the form of the Brahmi script, but texts of the length of the Rigveda were likely not written down until much later. While written manuscripts were used for teaching in medieval times, they WERE WRITTEN ON BRICH BARK or PALM LEAVES, WHICH DECOMPOSE FAIRLY QUICKLY IN THE TROPICAL CLIMATE, THE HYMNS WERE THUS PRESERVED BY ORAL TRADITION FOR UP TO A MILLENNIUM FROM THE TIME OF THEIR COMPOSITION UNTIL THE REDACTION OF THE RIGVEDA

      SANGAM PERIOD is the period in the history of ancient southern India (known as the Tamilakam) spanning from c. 3rd century BCE to c. 4th century CE. It is named after the famous Sangam academies of poets and scholars centered in the city of Madurai.

      In Old Tamil language, the term Tamilakam referred to the whole of the ancient Tamil-speaking area corresponding roughly to the area known as southern India today, consisting of the territories of the present-day Indian states of Tamil Nadu, Kerala, parts of Andhra Pradesh, parts of Karnataka and northern Sri Lanka also known as Illam.

      SANGAM PERIOD is the period in the history of ancient southern India (known as the Tamilakam) spanning from c. 3rd century BCE to c. 4th century CE. It is named after the famous SANGAM academies of poets and scholars centered in the city of Madurai.

      In Old Tamil language, the term Tamilakam referred to the whole of the ancient Tamil-speaking area, corresponding roughly to the area known as southern India today, consisting of the territories of the present-day Indian states of Tamil Nadu, Kerala, parts of Andhra Pradesh, parts of Karnataka and northern Sri Lanka also known as Illam.

      • ravi

        @Ramesh
        Literature which was composed during Mouryan empire( from 322 to 185 BCE )was in SANSKRIT,PALI and PRAKRIT.

        (1) ARTHASHSHTRA OF KOUTILYA WELL KNOWN.IN SANSKRIT
        (2)BHADRABAHU OF JAIN KALPASUTRA WELL KNOWN IN PRAKRIT
        (3)MUDGALIPURA TISHYA BUDDHIST KATHAVATTHU IN PALI
        KASHYAP,ARTI or ARTRI ,VAISHIST,BRAHMARSHI

        VISWAMITRA,GAUTAM MAHARSHI,JAMADGNI,BHARATDWAJA ARE SAPTA VAIDIC RISHI( MUCH BEFORE 1100 BCE)

        VEDA VYASA OR Krishna Dvaipayana( AT 1100 BCE) IS THE REAL AUTHOR OF VEDA IN WRITTEN FORM AS PER ORDER OF LORD KRISHNA.

        MUCH OF BRHMI LITERATURE WRITTEN DURING SANGAM PERIOD (3rd century BCE.)

    • raj

      @sunil
      Marathi writer and aryan-dravid history scholar-mrs iravati karve
      supported that Gita added in Mahabharata afterword
      Please provide any link.
      or
      Please provide Name of Book
      Publishers address
      Price
      Availability address of book store in India

  57. sunil

    karan – i went through the links you suggested , it said that devnagri script descendent of brahmic (bhambhic)script and time of devnagri from 12th century to present. it also said that the hindu scripture written in devnagri . so from this link what you want to say? whether vedas are ancient or so modern that is near 12th century ?

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, what exactly are you trying to prove? You are quoting stray references from here and there, what do you intend to convey? Your mind seems all mumbo-jumbo and confused. Write down your message in reference points, number 1 this and number 2 that, and I will reply to you. For a change stop quoting Thapar, Witzel and other discredited persons, quote from the scriptures itself

    • raj

      @sunil the baptist
      While written manuscripts were used for teaching in medieval times, they WERE WRITTEN ON BRICH BARK or PALM LEAVES, WHICH DECOMPOSE FAIRLY QUICKLY IN THE TROPICAL CLIMATE, THE HYMNS WERE THUS PRESERVED BY ORAL TRADITION FOR UP TO A MILLENNIUM FROM THE TIME OF THEIR COMPOSITION UNTIL THE REDACTION OF THE RIGVEDA
      So,vedas are ancient and not modern .

    • raj

      @sunil THE BAPTIST
      Oral traditions were central in societies without written texts.Literacy in preindustrial societies was associated with civil administration, law, long distance trade or commerce, and religion A formal schooling in literacy was provided to an elite group either at religious institutions or at the palaces of the rich and powerful.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education

      • som

        @raj
        Well said.
        In the Beginning the early oral traditions of the Upanishads (c. 2000 BC), the guru-shishya relationship had evolved into a fundamental component of Hinduism.
        The term “Upanishad” derives from the Sanskrit words “upa” (near), “ni” (down) and “şad” (to sit) — so it means “sitting down near” a spiritual teacher to receive instruction.
        The relationship between Krishna and Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita portion of the Mahabharata, and between Rama and Hanuman in the Ramayana are examples. In the Upanishads, gurus and disciples appear in a variety of settings (e.g. a husband answering questions about immortality; a teenage boy being taught by Yama, Hinduism’s Lord of Death) Sometimes the sages are women, and the instructions may be sought by kings.
        In the Vedas, the knowledge of Brahman (brahmavidya) is communicated from guru to shishya by oral lore.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru-shishya_tradition

      • nitha

        Providing literacy to most children has been a development of the last 150 or 200 years, or even last 50 years in some Third World countries.

        Schools for the young have historically been supplemented with advanced training, especially in Europe and China, for priests, bureaucrats and businessmen.
        For most craftsmen skills were learned during an apprenticeship—as for example most lawyers and physicians before the mid-19th century.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, you said to Karan ‘I went through the links you suggested , it said that devnagri script descendent of brahmic (bhambhic)script and time of devnagri from 12th century to present. it also said that the hindu scripture written in devnagri . so from this link what you want to say? whether vedas are ancient or so modern that is near 12th century’

      First of all, please note that language and script are 2 different things. Yes Sanskrit is the world’s oldest language, however it had an oral tradition. However, we know that Vyas Dev did write the Mahabharat and the Puranas and compiled the Vedas, so we can say that for sure, Sanskrit has been written from at least 5,000 years, if not more. What script it used? Most scholars say that the Nagari script, the precursor to Devanagari script, is around 1,300 years old (though we are aware of the extreme biases in which our scholars have to operate; the Marxist ‘historians’ who set the agenda, always push any inscription found to a later date, keeping in view their pet theories). However, anyway let’s even believe that Nagari script is just 1,300+ years, please keep in mind that Sanskrit has also been written in the Granth script, Gupta script, the Sharda script and of course, the Brahmi script. Besides that, it has also been written in every other regional script, including Tamil, Kannada, etc. For example, the Arthashastra (4 century BC) written in Sanskrit was in Granth script. Of course, most scholars consider the Brahmi script to be the most ancient Indian script. Obviously, it was expected of you to credit this script to Semitic sources, naturally I couldn’t expect anything better from you. Western academics, with their craze of tagging everything Indian with a foreign source, were expected to do this. Yet, persons like F.Raymond Allchin and G.R.Hunter generally supported that Brahmi script came from the Indus script. Of course, recent times with technology, scholars such as Subhash Kak, N.S.Rajaram, Natwar Jha, B.B.Lal, S.R.Rao, Michel Danino, among others have shown that the Indus / Harappan script and Brahmi were related. Besides that, I am aware that you wouldn’t bother opening the link, so I will paste some of them for you and others, while for some other sites, will give the link. I am sure that you will ask me that if the Mahabharat was written 5,000 years back, how come I cannot show you the original manuscript. My friend, are you even aware of how we even survived? Every single horde of foreign barbarian that came to our country, destroyed not just temples, killed not just people, but also made it a point to destroy schools, universities and libraries. ‘Indians had no sense of recording, no sense of history’ that’s what we are told, isn’t it. Maybe even some of my Hindu brothers over here believe in this. But, don’t. Don’t ever. Can you imagine how many hundreds of thousands of manuscripts were destroyed in Nalanda. Jain temples had a long history of keeping ancient books, which any Jain muni will proudly tell you. Pray, where did they go? If the temples were ransacked and destroyed, what do you expect of the books and manuscripts? That even this much is available is incredible. Look, you people are caught up in your Communist time wrap

      • Shlok

        @Sunil continued Of course, for persons like you the necessary ‘foreign blessing’ is important, so for your information Suzanne Redalia has cracked the Indus script, after working on it periodically for 40 years. She says it is Sanskrit. Another person is Egbert Rochter Ushanas, who says that the Rigveda can be used to decipher the Indus Valley seals and that it is Sanskrit. Besides that, S.R.Rao is a world famous marine archaeologist, who unearthed the sunken city of Dwarka. B.B.Lal, a top historian / archaeologist was a person even praised by Her Ladyship, Romila Thapar. Of course, since B.B.Lal is ‘speaking the language of the Hindutvavadis, ohhh what a shame’, now the same Commies are discrediting him. Look, I don’t care what you or your comrades in arms believe but Sanskrit is the world’s oldest language, Hindu Dharma is the world’s oldest religion, there was no such thing as Aryan – Dravidian race or conflict, and the Indus / Saraswati people were following Vedic culture and Sanskrit speaking. Chapter close

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, please read this –

      How Old Is Indian Writing? – Subhash Kak

      It is generally known that modern Indian scripts such as Devanagari, Telugu, Tamil, Bengali, are less than two thousand years old and that they sprang from Brahmi, which, in turn, is at least 2,500 years old. Early writings of Brahmi, discovered in Sri Lanka, have been dated tentatively to about 500 BC; the more commonly known Brahmi records belong to the reign of the Mauryan King Ashoka (250 BC). The Indus script (also called Harappan or Sarasvati) was used widely during 2600-1900 BC. It’s beginning has been traced back to 3300 BC and its use continued sporadically into the late centuries of the second millennium BC.

      The Brahmi script is the parent not only of the Indian scripts but also of most of other Asian scripts (see map below). It also influenced the development of the Japanese and the Korean scripts.

      We know that writing was prevalent in India prior to 500 BC. Written characters are mentioned in the Chhandogya and the Taittiriya Upanishad, and the Aitareya Aranyaka refers to the distinction between the various consonant classes. The voluminous Vedic texts also contain hints of writing in them. For example, Rigveda 10.71.4 says:

      utá tvaH páshyan ná dadarsha vaácam utá tvaH shRNván ná shRNoty enaam
      One man has never seen Vaak, yet he sees; one man has hearing but has never heard her.

      Since Vaak is personified speech, it suggests knowledge or writing. Another verse (RV 10.62.7) mentions cows being marked by the sign of “8″.

      The Atharvaveda (19.72) speaks of taking the Veda out of a chest (kosha), and although it may be a metaphor for knowledge coming out of a treasure house, it could equally have been meant in a literal sense.

      The traditional date for the Rigveda is about 3000 BC, with the later Vedic texts and the Brahmanas coming a few centuries later. The Aranyakas, Upanishads and the Sutras are, in this view, dated to the 2nd and early 1st millennia. The astronomical evidence in the texts is in accord with this view. Furthermore, the currently accepted date of 1900 BC for the drying up of the Sarasvati river, hailed as the mightiest river of the Vedic age with its course ranging from the mountain to the sea, implies that the Vedas are definitely prior to this date.

      It is also significant that the Brahmana texts speak of the drying up of the Sarasvati as a recent event.

      This brings the Vedas to the period of the use of the Indus script in India. It is also significant that the geography of the Harappan region corresponds to the geography of the Rigveda.

      Even if one accepted the colonial chronology of ancient India, the period of the Rigveda corresponds to the later period of the Harappan culture.

      This means that the Indus script is likely to have been used to write Sanskrit and other languages spoken in the 3rd millennium India, just as Brahmi was used to represent north and south Indian languages 2,500 years ago.

      I personally disagreed with the late Professor R.N. Dandekar on several of his views on ancient Indian culture, but he was right when he said: “There is, indeed, considerable circumstantial and inferential character which enables us to perceive the existence of writing even in the very early periods of Indian cultural history… It is true that the Veda has been handed down from generation to generation through oral tradition. It must not, however, be supposed that on that account, as is often erroneously done, that the art of writing was unknown in the early Vedic age. The practice of oral transmission of Veda was adopted, not because written copies of these texts were not available, but presumably because it was believed that oral transmission alone was more conducive to the preservation of the magico-religious potency and the formal protection of those arts. On the contrary, it may, indeed, be argued that it is almost unimaginable that such an extensive and highly complex literature such as the Veda and its ancillary texts dealing with subjects like phonetics, prosody and astronomy, much of which, again, is in prose form, was produced and propagated without the knowledge of writing.”

      There are many competing theories about the nature of the Indus script. The main difficulty with “proving” any decipherment is that the texts are very short.

      Some historians believe that Brahmi is derived from one of the West Asian scripts and, indeed, there are interesting similarities between their characters for several sounds. On the other hand, there is a remarkable continuity between the structures of Indus and Brahmi. Since a script can be used to write a variety of languages — even unrelated — the question of structural relationship is particularly interesting.

      Indus and Brahmi connections become evident when one considers the most commonly occurring letters of the two scripts. In a series of articles in Cryptologia, I examined these connections for similarity in form, case endings for inscriptions and the sign for “ten”. The parallels are extraordinary and the probability that they arose by chance is extremely small.

      Since the technical arguments related to the relationship between the two scripts are beyond the scope of this article, let me reproduce the ten most likely letters from the two scripts (Tables 1 and 2).

      Notice that the three most commonly occurring letters in both the scripts are the “jar”, the “fish” and the “man”. The number of matches in the ten signs is 7; the probability of this happening by chance is less than 10-12

      It is also remarkable that the “fish” sign is used as a symbol for “10″ in the Indus (used without the gills; it’s such use was determined by a statistical analysis) and the Brahmi scripts, although the Brahmi “fish” for “10″ is shown sideways.

      Regarding the similarities between Brahmi and early Semitic scripts, it should be noted that Indic kingdoms, in which Sanskrit names were used, were prominent in West Asia in the second millennium BC. Just as in the Vedic system, the Ugaritics, a people closely related to the Phoenicians and the Hebrews, have 33 gods. More importantly, Yahvah, the name of the God in the Judaic tradition, occurs as an epithet for Agni in the Rigveda a total of 21 times (yahva in RV 10.110; yahvah in RV 3.1, 3.5, 4.5, 4.7, 4.58, 5.1, 7.6, 7.8, 9.75, 10.11; yahvam in RV 1.36; 3.3; 4.5; 5.16; 8.13; 10.92; yahvasya in RV 3.2 and 3.28). Indus ideas on writing may thus have, through the agency of the powerful Mitanni kingdom of Syria, been influential in the various Semitic traditions of the second and first millennia BC.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, read the book by NS Rajaram, it will show you the links between Indus / Saraswati, HIndu Dharma and Sanskrit. Rather than wasting your money, time and brain on crackpots like Witzel, Farmer and Thapar, read this book. It will help you, believe me

      Sarasvati River and the Vedic Civilization: History, Science and Politics

      http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/sarasvati-river-and-vedic-civilization-history-science-and-politics-IDJ545/

  58. sunil

    indian realist- for your statement “is manusmriti is hindu scripture?” we are the the shankaracharyas to decide this. but one thing is clear from ancient history that this book was written in shungs’s dynasty by sumati bhargava and it was the first written CONSTITUTION of any dynasty in India, with the great purpose of
    1)to give the maximum advantages of anything to brahmins
    2)to increase the importance of yajna with bali
    3)to declare Buddhist rule as null and void
    4)to promos the division of society into deferent castes and untouchability,
    5)ill-treatment to shudras and women , and so on ….
    indian realist and shlok- “what if manusmriti is ill-treating to shudras and women? even bible also ill-treating women !! so these religions are here on earth to make the women slaves!! we are ill-treating women because christian also ill-treating them !!” what the good logic !!
    hey any female representative here to comment on this ? please reply.ye aapke 50% population ka sawal hai. plzzzz reply

    • Indian Realist

      “This book was written in shungs’s dynasty by sumati bhargava” Wow! You must have dreamt this up. Evidence please. I believe it was written by Alistair Maclean in 1972.

      Also, have you even read Manu Smriti, or are you just lifting some lines form other websites? There are hundreds of Smritis. Why are you obsessed with only one? Why not equal importance to others? Or is it that others are too inconvenient for you Jesus freaks? Do you want to discuss upanishads too? Or are they also inconvenient?

      Meanwhile, I am asking the “female representative” to to please comment on these. Ye 50% population ka sawaal hai.

      “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

      “You shall not let a sorceress live.” (Exodus 22:18)

      “Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.” (1 Samuel 15:3)

      “Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock.” (Psalm 137:9)

      “Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

      “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” (Deuteronomy 25:11-13)

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, first of all how many Hindus do you know keep a copy of the Manusamhita? Which prominent persons, society, religious denomination preaches the Manusamhita? Besides that, do you know what is the difference between sruti and smriti? Finally, if you are a Muslim or christian, how come your ‘literate’ mind is not troubledby the fact that the Quran and Bible are books that openly propogate the killing of innocent people, butchering all those who do not believe in their books, subjugate women, etc>? If you are a Commie, then remeber that Stalin and Mao between them killed upto 100 million people. If you are a rebel Hindu, then use your common sense. Most Hindus today only know and keep copies of the Ramayana, the Mahabharat and the Gita. And many scholar Hindus and philosophers teach the Vedas and Upanishads. No one pays any importance to Manu Samhita

    • raj

      @sunil
      HISTORY OF INDIA NOT STARTS FROM PUSYAMITRA SUNGA ,IT STRATS
      FROM KING BHARATA
      REF- AS PER YOUR RELIABLE WIKIPEDIA
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharata_(emperor)
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_India
      The name Bhārata (भारत) has been used as a self-ascribed name by people of the Indian Subcontinent and the Republic of India. Bhārata is the official Sanskrit name of the country, Bhārata Gaṇarājya, and the name is derived from the ancient Indian texts, that which refers to the land that comprises India as Bhārata varṣam, and uses this term to distinguish it from other varṣas or continents. For example, the Vayu Puranas says he who conquers the whole of Bharata-varsa is celebrated as a samrāt (Vayu Purana 45, 86).However in some puranas, the term ‘Bharate’ refers to the whole Earth as Emperor Bharata is said to have ruled the whole Earth. Until the death of Maharaja Parikshit, the last formidable emperor of the Kuru dynasty, the known world was known as Bharata varsha.

      IN HIS COSTITUTION

      1) the maximum advantages of anything to brahmins( verna not cast)HAD BEEN NOT GIVEN
      2)”yagya” HAD BEEN IN PRACTICE
      3) Buddhist religion was known at that time
      4)there was no existence of cast system but verna system
      5) condition of women in society was good. , and so on …

      Reference:-.
      Rishabha was born to Marudevi, Bharata was born to Rishabh,
      Bharatvarsha (India) arose from Bharata, and Sumati arose from Bharata
      —Vishnu Purana (2,1,31)
      This country is known as Bharatavarsha since the times the father entrusted the kingdom to the son Bharata and he himself went to the forest for ascetic practices
      —Vishnu Purana (2,1,32)
      The realm of Bharata is known as Bharātavarṣa in the Mahabhārata (the core portion of which is itself known as Bhārata) and later texts. The term varsa means a division of the earth, or a continent. A version of the Bagavatha Purana says, the Name Bharatha is after Jata Bharatha who appears in the fifth canto of the Bagavatha.
      - Vishnu Purana (2.3.1)
      “The country (varṣam) that lies north of the ocean and south of the snowy mountains is called Bhāratam; there dwell the descendants of Bharata.”
      The term in Classical Sanskrit literature is taken to comprise the present day territories of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Republic of India, Nepal and Bangladesh. This corresponds to the approximate extent of the historical Maurya Empire under emperors Chandragupta Maurya and Ashoka the Great (4th to 3rd centuries BC). Later political entities unifying approximately the same region are the Mughal Empire (17th century), the Maratha Empire (18th century), and the British Raj (19th to 20th centuries).

    • raj

      @sunil the baptist
      Manusmriti is ill-treating to shudras and women,it does not make any point, because it is NOT IN PRACTICE,Copy of Manusmriti not available in any HINDU home.

      Bible ill-treating women ,it make point because iT IS IN PRACTICE, Copy of Bible is available in any CHRISTIAN home.

      it is a good logic
      Any female representative here to comment on this ?
      please reply.ye aapke 50% population ka sawal hai. plzzzz reply

  59. sunil

    indian realist – hey comeon , do something for these illiterate hindus as you people are literate hindues, do posibles to get them in main stream (instead of wasting energy to spread false like vedas are apaurushaya, anadi, anant which is not more important than to fight against illiteracy and make our nation’s future more bright.otherwise these illiterate hindus will follow my juvenile propaganda(as you said above), and start opposing you.. tab lakhonko jabab dena bahut muskil hoga.

    • Indian Realist

      Your wet dreams of a revolution in India after which the the flag or christ will fly from Tirupati will not come true. Missionaries have been wetting their chaddis in the night dreaming this for the last 500 years. Meanwhile, since your heart seems full of the milk of human kindness, why don’t you request your God to allow pagans into heaven and not boil them in hot oil. And also ask him again if sun goes around the earth or did he make a mistake in telling us that.

  60. sunil

    anonymous-dude take the good and leave the bad. reference of manusmriti was given by me for some other reason and to criticize it.you please read all and then comment.

    • raj

      @sunil
      READ ENTIRE INDIAN HISTORY DO NOT START FROM PUSYAMITRA SUNGA ,START FROM KING BHARTA,YOUR COUNTRY CALLED BHARAT FOR THIS REASON ,ASK TO ANY SCHOOL BOY.
      DO NOT TAKE ALL BAD .

  61. Vineet

    @Sunil / @Cynical
    Any religious / socio-economic / political philosophy that is based on “Only I am right and rest all are wrong” leads to violence and deaths since by implication all others become bad guys and they have to be eliminated. Same is the case with Islam, Christianity, Communists, Socialists etc.

    Since the underlying belief is “only I am good and others are bad” and to have eliminated, the process of elimination varies, but belief is same.

    Even in case of your revered Christianity or few rupees or rice bags, whatever the inspiration was, the idea is same. We have seen you and likes of you on many blogs etc how you put forward your logic. Your methods worked when the information flow was one way – that is from monotheists to general public but now tables have turned.

    Hindus have started giving you back, and you know deep down that you have no answers.

    Some questions regarding bible were asked on various other threads, no answers came.

    During the debates of Ram Mandir – Babri Masjid, Muslims claimed that if it can be proven that there was a temple at that place before Masjid. The usual set of historians (that you quote) could manage only each other’s articles and if you notice HIgh Court verdict, it acknowledges presence of a structure underneath the disputed site with non-islamic pillars, structure etc

    When we hindus talk, we talk with facts not like your sweeping statements.

    How about telling us about missing years of Jesus from Bible. then we will talk further.

  62. sunil

    Pushyamitra Sunga is the commander in chief of Mauryan armed forces. Pushyamitra assassinated the Mauryan ruler while he was taking Guard of Honour of his forces. This was 50 years after the death of the Emperor Ashoka who propagated Buddhism after the Kalinga war to establish peace. Thus Pushyamitra established Sunga dynasty during 187 BCE..

    Pushyamitra Sunga according to Ashokavardhana, killed Buddhist monks and destroyed sagharama, He proclaimed that he would give a hundred dinara reward to whomever brought him the head of a Buddhist monk. Sunga period is characterized by wars and conflicts. They warred against Kalingas, Satavahanas, Indo Greeks, Panchalas and Mathuras.

    Sunga dynasty came to an end when the last Sunga king Deva Bhuti [83-73 BCE] was assassinated by his minister Vasudeva Kanva, establishing Kanva dynasty.

    Why Pushyamitra killed the Buddhist monks? Pushyamitra is a brahmin and by persecuting and killing Buddhists he reestablished dominance of brahminism which started the rearyanisation of India by forced conversions of Buddhists.

    • raj

      @sunil
      READ ENTIRE INDIAN HISTORY DO NOT START FROM PUSYAMITRA SUNGA ,START FROM KING BHARTA,YOUR COUNTRY CALLED BHARAT FOR THIS REASON ,ASK TO ANY SCHOOL BOY.
      DO NOT TAKE ALL BAD .

    • Shlok

      @Shlok, Pushyamitra killing buddhis monks is absolutely crap. Once again, please go back to ‘Have Christians in AP reached 19%’ check the older comments, your well wisher ‘Dr’ Philips made the same comments in 2011. I am grateful to Nirmal Laungani for him giving a firm reply an proving without any doubt that this never happened. Please stop quoting the Communist historians. If it serves their Marxist philosophy, they would not hesitate to call their mothers as prostitutes

  63. sunil

    @Ramesh
    you mentioned vedic period is also same in ancient Indian history, also would like to know from you that the script which is used to write vedas i.e. devnagri , when it originated and developed in India

    • raj

      @sunil THE BAPTIST
      You know ABOUT ROMAN CIVILIZATION is also same in ancient EUROPEAN history, also would like to know from you that the script which is used to write bible.e. Roman, when it originated and developed in Europe

      • jo

        The history of alphabetic writing goes back to the consonantal writing system used for SEMITIC languages in the Levant in the 2nd millennium B.C. Most or nearly all alphabetic scripts used throughout the world today ultimately go back to this SEMITIC PROTO-ALPHABET. Its first origins can be traced back to a Proto-Sinaitic script developed in ANCIENT EGIPT to represent the language of Semitic-speaking workers in Egypt. This script was partly influenced by the older Egyptian hieratic, a cursive script related to Egyptian hieroglyphs.
        Mainly through Phoenician and Aramaic, two closely related members of the Semitic family of scripts that were in use during the early first millennium BC, THE SEMITICS ALPHABET BECAME THE ANCESTOR OF MULTIPLE WRITING SYSTEMS ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, EUROPE, NORTHERN AFRICA and SOUTH ASIA.
        Some modern authors distinguish between consonantal scripts of the Semitic type, called “abjads”, and “true alphabets” in the narrow sense, the distinguishing criterion being that true alphabets consistently assign letters to both consonants and vowels on an equal basis, while in an abjad each symbol usually stands for a consonant. IN THIS SENSE, THE FIRST TRUE ALPHABET WAS THE GREEK ALPHABET, which was adapted from the Phoenician. Latin, the most widely used alphabet today, IN TURN DERIVED FROM THE GREEK.

        • nitha

          @jo
          So,you do not what exactly time ,date and founder of Roman script.
          If ,You know the name of founder and co-founder of Roman script and his actual date of Birth,then please tell me.
          We ,including sunil want to celebrate their birth anniversary regularly,because they had performed good job,
          So,@sunil
          Agreed???

        • Ramesh

          @sunil
          I mentioned vedic period and also same in ancient Indian history, also YOU would like to know the name of founder and co-founder of Devnagri script and their actual date of Birth want to celebrate their birth anniversary regularly,because they had performed good job,

          So, first You tell me the name of founder and co-founder of Roman script and their actual date of Birth.

        • jo

          The Latin alphabet is the main writing system in use in the Western world and is the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world.[1] It is the standard script of the English language and is often referred to simply as “the alphabet” in English. It is a true alphabet which originated in the 7th century BC in Italy and has changed continually over the last 2500 years. It has roots in the Semitic alphabet and its offshoot alphabets, the Phoenician, Greek, and Etruscan. The phonetic values of some letters changed, some letters were lost and gained, and several writing styles (“hands”) developed. Two such styles, the minuscule and majuscule hands, were combined into one script with alternate forms for the lower and upper case letters. Due to classicism, modern uppercase letters differ only slightly from their classical counterparts. There are few regional variants.

        • jo

          The classical Latin alphabet or Roman alphabet evolved from a western variety of the Greek alphabet called the Cumaean alphabet, itself a descendant of the Phoenician alphabet, which was adopted and modified by the Etruscans who ruled early Rome. The Etruscan alphabet was in turn adopted and further modified by the ancient Romans to write the Latin language.
          During the Middle Ages, the Latin alphabet was adapted to Romance languages, direct descendants of Latin, as well as to Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, and some Slavic languages. With the age of colonialism and Christian evangelism, the Latin script was spread overseas, and applied to indigenous American, Australian, Austronesian, Austroasiatic, and African languages. More recently, linguists have also tended to prefer the Latin script or the International Phonetic Alphabet (itself largely based on Latin script) when transcribing or creating written standards for non-European languages, such as the African reference alphabet.
          The term Latin alphabet may refer to either the alphabet used to write Latin (as described in this article), or other alphabets based on the Latin script, which is the basic set of letters common to the various alphabets descended from the classical Latin one, such as the English alphabet. These Latin-derived alphabets may discard letters, like the Rotokas alphabet, or add new letters, like the Danish and Norwegian alphabet. Letter shapes have changed over the centuries, including the creation for Medieval Latin of lower case forms which did not exist in the Classical period.

          • S

            Hello Jo, do you realize the trash that you have written above ?

          • Ramesh

            @jo
            THE DEVELOPEMENT OF ENGLISH (ROMAN ) ALPHABET
            SEMITIC languages.SEMITIC PROTO-ALPHABET,Egyptian hieroglyphs,Semitic family of scripts,GREEK ALPHABET,Semitic alphabet and its offshoot alphabets, the Phoenician, Greek, and Etruscan, few regional variants,classical Latin alphabet or Roman alphabet,variety of the Greek alphabet called the Cumaean alphabet,descendant of the Phoenician alphabet,adopted and modified by the Etruscans who ruled early Rome,Celtic, influence of Germanic, Baltic, and some Slavic languages,Rotokas alphabet influence of Danish and Norwegian alphabet…………..AND SO ON.
            So, this is the very complex history .
            IT DOES NOT MEAN THE KNOWLEDGE OF BIBLE IS NEW ,ALTHOUGH
            A BOOK OF BIBLE WRITTEN IN MODERN ENGLISH MIGHT BE NEW.BUT
            HOW COULD BE KNOWLEDGE OF BIBLE BECAME NEW,CERTAINLY IT IS OLD.
            THIS IS THE GLIMPSE OF OLD KNOWLEDGE OF BIBLE
            In the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, chapters one through five, there are two creation narratives with two distinct perspectives. In the first, Adam and Eve were created together in God’s image and jointly given instructions to multiply and to be stewards over everything else that God had made. In the second narrative, God fashions Adam from dust and places him in the Garden of Eden where he is to have dominion over the plants and animals. God places a tree in the garden which he prohibits Adam from eating. Eve is later created from one of Adam’s ribs to be Adam’s companion. However, the serpent tricks Eve into eating from it. God curses only the serpent and the ground. He prophetically tells the woman and the man what will be the consequences of their sin of disobeying God. Then he banishes the man (and presumably also the woman) from the Garden of Eden.
            The story underwent extensive elaboration in later Abrahamic traditions, and has been extensively analyzed by modern biblical scholars. Interpretations and beliefs regarding Adam and Eve and the story revolving around them vary across religions and sects.
            AT THE SAME FASHION:-
            IT DOES NOT MEAN THE KNOWLEDGE OF VEDA IS NEW ,ALTHOUGH
            A BOOK OF VEDA WRITTEN IN MODERN SANSKRIT MIGHT BE NEW.BUT HOW COULD BE KNOWLEDGE OF VEDA BECAME NEW,CERTAINLY IT IS OLD.

  64. sunil

    Indian realist-you ask bible related question to some Christian history experts.there are many on net.
    one I know will suggest for you http://www.oocities.org 108 question to shankara mutt

  65. sunil

    According to ancient Indian epic legend of the Mahabharata as well as the numerous puranas and diverse Indian history, Bharat Empire included the whole territory of the Indian subcontinent, including parts of present day Pakistan, Afghanistan, China, Iran, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia,[3] Turkmenistan, North-west Tibet, Nepal and Bangladesh.(raj’s comment)

    raj-1)there is difference in mythical stories and the history,
    2)story of Bharata is not the part of Indian ancient history, these stories comes in Mahabharata epic before the actual Mahabharata story start, like story of Sishya Aaruni and all.
    3)do you have any reference of some Chinese or Russian history books statementing that king Bharat was ruling there and had capital Hastinapur, at any time ?
    4)so do you mean that Bharat was the first aryan king of india and not Pusyamitra?
    5)largest geographical area of any kingdom in India was in Mauryan dynasty around 300B.C. (see any ancient history book).Please do not propagate these mythical stories as history , grow up now , you are not a schoolboy to tell these schoolboy stories to me .

  66. ravi

    @sunil the Baptist
    You are a follower of fake ideology I.e. Dravidian Christianity .

  67. sunil

    Shlok-you said 1)”Lokmanya Tilak not an exprt.
    2)who is dr raychaudhary? why trust his judgement?
    3)we do not believe in the trash of JNU historians
    4)for a change stop quoting Thapar , witzal, and other discredited persons.

    This is an ego man! then who are you ? and what are you?
    if there is no base of their writings then how your writings are only the truth?

    • Indian Realist

      Is there any base for Bible saying Sun goes around the earth?

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, this is getting super repetitive. If you don’t have time to study the various websites and books on the reasons why JNU historians and Romila Thapar write absolute crap, at least you can check on the various posts on this blog site, both in this topic itself as well as the other posts such as ‘Have Christians in AP reached 19%’. It will be a sheer waste of time attempting to educate persons like you who have no idea of what’s been going on. If you call it ego, how could I care less? If you want to learn ABC, you need to go to kindergarten and not waste time here. Clear? We have all respects to persons like Lokmanya Tilak the freedom fighter, the person who mobilized people through the Ganpathy festival, etc, however Tilak was influenced by the British trash written in those days. Max Mueller had started the process of Aryans coming from outside India. With Germans saying they must have come from Scandinavia,others saying from Russia, etc.. so in that line Tilak suggested the Arctic. As I said you start with a faulty theory, and then go adding up to it. That was the basic thing. And you didn’t bother responding to the fact that Max Mueller, the grandfather of this nonsense himself backtracked on it towards the end of his life. He clearly accepted that no such nonsense as an Aryan Invasion took place, nay he even went far to say that there was no such thing as an Aryan race. And persons like Romila Thapar are heavily influenced by Max Mueller (and Witzel, Doniger and such persons from Thapar). To make one more concluding point over here, Max Mueller when he preached this nonsense, was heavily influenced by his Christian upbringing. So, the Bible says God created earth 5,000 years back, and the Biblical flood 4,000 years back. So keeping in mind all of these dates, Max Mueller dated the Rig Veda to between 1,500 – 500 BC, and he freely accepts his Christian bias. Now you tell me, how can any sane person today accept the Biblical boundaries when dating history. If you still didn’t get the message, then you yourself are shackled by the chains of these Commie and Christian ‘historians’. Break them and you will see light

  68. Hariharan

    @sunil
    Do you know recent scientific discoveries about
    Saraswati Civilization which has been approved
    by present UPA government, jointly conducted
    by Indian Space Research organization, Rajasthan Ground Water Survey and other renowned Scientific Research and Development
    Organizations, through Satellite mapping, Carbon
    dating and other useful means about the oldest
    Civilization destroyed due to tectonic shift coused dried up Saraswati river ,which was larger than Amazon at that time and due to
    that reason population of Vaidic Civilization had
    been shifted to Mesopotamia and other part of
    world ,eliminating every possibility of Aryan invasion theory and established Aryan Migration
    Theory?
    You can find link

  69. sunil

    Slok- you talked about different types of scripts(granth, gupta, sharda, brahmi etc).also said that sanskrit is written in all script.

    There is little intervening evidence for writing during the millennium and a half between the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization c. 1900 BCE and the first appearance of Brahmi in the 3rd century BCE (earlier dates are claimed, but not widely accepted—see South Indian epigraphy below), and there is no accepted decipherment of the Indus script, but similarities to the Indus script have been nonetheless claimed by scholars such as Kak, who did not even acknowledge the existence of the Semitic-origin theory.[11] A promising possible link between the Indus script and later writing traditions may be in the graffiti of the South Indian megalithic culture, which may have some overlap with the Indus symbol inventory and persisted in use up at least through the appearance of the Brahmi and Tamil Brahmi scripts up into the 3rd century CE. These graffiti usually appear singly, though on occasion may be found in groups of two or three, and are thought to have been family, clan, or religious symbols.[12]

    so bhambi (brahmi )script used in 300B.C. is the precuser of all scripts like granth sharda, devnagri etc.Emporer Ashok slilalekh(stone writing) written in bhambi script using pali language and related to Buddhism.

    dude devnagri is very descendent of brahmi and today’s all books like puranas, brahmanes, including vedas written in sanskrit if using devnagri then they are not before than 300B.C.And this is the subject we discussing here”when vedas got written?”

    Again as I mentioned already that Shunga dynasty(187B.C) was a brahmin dynasty which came after assassinated Bruhdratha(Mauryan), So many changes took place in Indian culture, Sanskrit got the support of king (which was not there in Mauryan dynasty) Sanskrit books got written,and Sanskrit is banned for Sudras, yajna started,may be this was the start of caste system also.
    I think now you got the answer of your query why I jumped on Shunga’s subject, discussion about Shungas is necessary when you discuss about these books.

    • Indian Realist

      Dude, why are you giving history lessons here? Better go to a history forum.

    • Hariharan

      @sunil
      The very famous book Arthashastra written by Kautilya during the era of Chandragupta Mourya was written in Sanskrit much before Pushyamitre Sunga.

    • Shlok

      @Once again you are stuck with Devanagari. Did you hear me say that it was written in Devanagari? It was written in Sanskrit, could have been any script. Even Max Mueller dated Rig Veda as between 2,500 – 3,500 years old. That is definitely the most conservative estimate. As far as we are concerned, we firmly believe that the Rig Veda was written at least 5,000 years back, and that also 1st recorded 5,000 years back, but it is definitely much older.

      From your writings, it seems that you are asking to see the original Rig Veda or other scriptures. How many original books of that age still exist?

      Lets take an example of the Bible. It is supposed to have been written in Hebrew and Aramaic. It is claimed that Old Testament is 3,000+ years old while the New Testament around 1st century. However, while very few parts of Hebrew Bible exist from 2nd century, the oldest existing complete Bible is from the 4th century and that too in the Greek language. So, can we say that because the complete works have only been found in the 4th century so it means that it was written only in 4th century and that too in Greek. Here it gets even more complicated, because the 4th century Bible will not be understood by the laymen, except scholars. Further, please also note that the oldest extant manuscripts of the vocalized Masoretic text, which modern editions are based upon, date only to the 9th century. And also, with the exception of a few biblical sections in the Prophets, virtually no biblical text is contemporaneous with the events it describes, and was subject to revision by later authors.

      Yet, most people have no problems to say Bible was written 2,000 – 3,000 years back (Jews claim 4,000 years back). Even I have no problems to believing in it. But when it comes to Hindu texts, then insane people will demand proofs of all sorts.

      So, how is finding the oldest surviving text relevant to when it was actually written?

      You seem to have some kind of fixture to Pushyamitra Sunga. You skipped out the entire Mauryan dynasty, the Nanda dynasty, etc. It is just a fallacy, a myth that Sanskrit didn’t have the support of the Mauryan dynasty or the ones before that. Even crackpot historians accept that the Arthashastra was written by Kautilya during the reign of Chandragupta Maurya. It was written in Sanskrit. Panini’s Ashtadhyayi was composed in 4th century BC, which even European and many Commie historians accept. Both of them make references to Vedas, to Lord Hari, etc. For that matter, even Megasthenes writes about Vedas and Vasudev.

      And besides that, don’t give me that crap that Prakrit was encouraged but not Sanskrit. This kind of rivalry only exists in your insane minds. Prakrit for all, is considered as a dialect of Sanskrit. Anyone who knows Sanskrit can understand Prakrit. Over a period of time, dialects come up. It is claimed that in China, after every 10 kms, the dialect changes, yet there is a standard Chinese and dialectic Chinese.

      Your claim that Hindu scriptures were written during Pushyamitra’s time is crap of the 1st order

    • Shlok

      Hindu friends, these Commies, Christians and all their sympathizers make up all kinds of stupid theories. Now we are coming to another joker over here, who wants to go one step ahead of Max Mueller also. I had commented before that we have learnt in schools that Hindus had no interest in writing, Hindus did not record anythiing. Of course, having studied in secular republic of India, I also heard this trash. At the same time I also read that the burning of the great library at Nalanda took 3 months. So at one time we hear that Indians had no tradition of writing and on the other hand what was there in the library that took 3 months to burn? Recently, I have made more search and incredible but true Nalanda LIbrary had 9 million books, as attested by Xuanzang the Chinese pilgrim in the 7th century. And these ancient books consisted of many subjects, not just Buddhism or Hinduism and were mostly in Sanskrit. What is more Xuanzang is known to have taken 673 books in Sanskrit relating to Buddhism, as he had come to learn Buddhism in the country. He is considered as one of the pioneers of Chinese Buddhism and also due to his efforts Buddhism spread to Korea and Japan. So, can you imagine from 7th century to 12th century when it was burnt, how many more books would have been added? And how many ancient Sanskrit books were there that we have lost tract of?

      Of course, those who put in theories of Hindu-Buddhist conflict don’t emphasize that primarily Buddhist Nalanda University grew due to the patronage of the Gupta Emperors, who were Hindu. Again as attested by Xuanzang, not just Buddhism, but even Hinduism was taught and books included were on mathematics, science and others. Monasteries and temples resided side by side.

      Now about Nalanda, everyone knows something. But what about the oldest university in the country, Takshashila. Please see the link below, and for the sake of lazy persons like Sunil, some information directly pasted

      @

      More than 2700 years back a huge university existed in that ancient India where over 10,500 students from all across the world came for higher studies.

      This was the TakshaShila university of ancient India (wrongly spelled as Taxila today). During its times this university was the IIT and MIT of the world, where the students from all across the world used to come to attain specialization in over 64 different fields of study like vedas, grammar, philosophy, ayurveda, agriculture, surgery, politics, archery, warfare, astronomy, commerce, futurology, music, dance, etc. There were even curious subjects like the art of discovering hidden treasure, decrypting encrypted messages, etc

      Students were admitted to this university at the age of 16 after they had completed their basic education in their local institutions. Every single graduate who passed out of this university would become a well sought after scholar all across the subcontinent!

      Admission into this university was purely based on merit. The students would opt for electives and then would do in depth study and research into their field of choice.

      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/takshashila-taxila-oldest-university/

  70. sunil

    Shlok-your statement
    “it is unfortunate that so-called dalits consider themselves outcaste ”

    you also provide solution for this -to go to root of Vedas.

    what the rubbish are you talking dear? Sudra and dalits have no religious right to read write or hear the Vedas!and Vedas are already opposed and rejected by great philosophers of India like Charvaka, Mahavir Jain, and Buddha, among of which Mahavira and Buddha provide great principles for life.
    here I would like to suggest some solution , see if you agree with it or no
    1)hence forth our society will stop writing “SC/ST please excuse” in there matrimony advertise.
    2)we will declare one of our shankaracharya from shudras or dalit community.
    I think this will be idea rather than your sympathy to these people.

    • Sindhus

      @Sunil:

      Why do upper caste Christians do not marry Dalit Christians? Why do dalit Christians have separate Churches and graveyards?

      Caste or some form of bias was always there in all parts of the world. The good thing about Hinduism is it was not only identified by many great people but has also been eradicated except in the minds of converts who want to keep Hindus divided.

      @Shlok:
      Great work. Keep it up.

      • Indian Realist

        The biggest caste system Christianity follows is to consider the non-Christians as unclean and condemn them to eternal hell.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, again repeatitive and super crap. Show me in the Vedas where the Shudras are discriminated. If you knew the subject on which you are making big claims, you would know that no such thing as Dalits existed in the Vedas. Again, if you start quoting persons like Griffiths, who didn’t know proper Sanskrit to begin with, I am ready to give you refutations which show the ignorance of such persons. Are you ready to face the challenge? If not you better shut up by saying that Vedas preached inequality. Charvak reducing the Vedas, sure he was a materialistic, or if you want to summarize in brief, an atheist. Of course, if he was born somewhere in the Middle East he would have been murdered by the people or given capital punishment by the state. Buddha and Mahavir rejecting the Vedas is a complicated subject which you should not get into if you don’t know the topics concerned. Both Mahavir and Gautam Buddha’s philosophy also verged towards atheism, but surely they believed in Dharma. But to make things simpler for you, they did bellieve in karma and reincarnation and many of their principles were based on Vedic foundation, something accepted by no less than Dalai Lama in regard to Gautam Buddha. Hinduism,Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism are all “Dharma religion’. Again, not a forum to discuss this. My friend, you are on a weak wicket over here. I specialize in all these subjects. I wanted to be an archaeologist, but was dissuaded by my famiy as they said I couldn’t run the house on it (they are true – this is the pathetic state of our country, where anyone studying humanities, arts or other subjects have no future). So, I had to jettison my dreams to make money. But anyway, reading history and philosophy has been and is my passion, Your last comment is quite stupid. You can’t be so ignorant to not know that a child born to a fisherwoman can be the author of the Mahabharat. So, before you open your mouth, take a deep breath inside, think of what you are going to write and how we will react, and only then exhale. Stop making a fool of yourself like Cynical did. The jhoom barabar jhoom sharaabi seems to have escaped even without tendering an apology to a person representing the anusuchit jaati

      • Shlok

        @Sunil, it should be Charvak rejecting the Vedas

      • Cynical

        @Shlok
        No sir, I haven’t escaped anywhere. Reading the comments and being entertained. Don’t worry, the person who represents the ‘anusuchit jaati’ will get the apology he is waiting for as soon as the response is ready. I intend to make it a bit spicy. Just want to be sure how much spice I have to add as per the ‘RESERVATION’ guidelines.

  71. Anonymous

    The various Indian philosophies and sects have taken differing positions on the Vedas. Schools of Indian philosophy which cite the Vedas as their scriptural authority are classified as “orthodox” (āstika). Other traditions, notably Buddhism and Jainism, which did not regard the Vedas as authorities are referred to by traditional Hindu texts as “heterodox” or “non-orthodox” (nāstika) schools.[10][11] In addition to Buddhism and Jainism, Sikhism[12][13] and Brahmoism,[14] many non-Brahmin Hindus in South India[15] do not accept the authority of the Vedas. Certain South Indian Transmission of texts in the Vedic period was by oral tradition alone, preserved with precision with the help of elaborate mnemonic techniques. A literary tradition set in only in post-Vedic times, after the rise of Buddhism in the Maurya period, perhaps earliest in the Kanva recension of the Yajurveda about the 1st century BCE; however oral tradition predominated until c. 1000 CE.[23]

    Due to the ephemeral nature of the manuscript material (birch bark or palm leaves), surviving manuscripts rarely surpass an age of a few hundred years.[24] The Benares Sanskrit University has a Rigveda manuscript of the mid-14th century; however, there are a number of older Veda manuscripts in Nepal belonging to the Vajasaneyi tradition that are dated from the 11th century onwards.Brahmin communities such as Iyengars consider the Tamil Divya Prabandham or writing of the Alvar saints as equivalent to the Vedas.[16]
    Buddhism does not deny that the Vedas in their true origin were sacred but it holds that they have been amended repeatedly by certain Brahmins to secure their positions in society. The Buddha declared that the Veda in its true form was declared by Kashyapa to certain rishis, who by severe penances had acquired the power to see by divine eyes.[61] In the Buddhist Vinaya Pitaka of the Mahavagga (I.245)[62] section the Buddha names these rishis, and declared the Vedic rishis “Atthako, Vâmako, Vâmadevo, Vessâmitto, Yamataggi, Angiraso, Bhâradvâjo, Vâsettho, Kassapo, and Bhagu”[63] but that it was altered by a few Brahmins who introduced animal sacrifices. The Vinaya Pitaka’s section Anguttara Nikaya: Panchaka Nipata says that it was on this alteration of the true Veda that the Buddha refused to pay respect to the Vedas of his time.[64]

    Also in the “Brahmana Dhammika Sutta” (II,7)[65] of the Suttanipata section of Vinaya Pitaka[66] there is a story of when the Buddha was in Jetavana village and there were a group of elderly Brahmin ascetics who sat down next to the Buddha and a conversation began.

    The elderly Brahmins asked him, “Do the present Brahmans follow the same rules, practice the same rites, as those in the more ancient times?”
    The Buddha replied, “No.”
    The elderly Brahmins asked the Buddha that if it were not inconvenient for him, that he would tell them of the Brahmana Dharma of the previous generation.
    The Buddha replied: “There were formerly rishis, men who had subdued all passion by the keeping of the sila precepts and the leading of a pure life…Their riches and possessions consisted in the study of the Veda and their treasure was a life free from all evil…The Brahmans, for a time, continued to do right and received in alms rice, seats, clothes, and oil, though they did not ask for them. The animals that were given they did not kill; but they procured useful medicaments from the cows, regarding them as friends and relatives, whose products give strength, beauty and health.”

  72. sunil

    Shlok- what do mean only Charvaka rejected and opposed vedas ?
    you are wrong,
    here is one copy paste for you from one one of Jainism site.
    Others,I will definately discuss here, as time permit
    By Mrs. N. R. Guseva

    According to the author’s knowledge, the question viz. in which ethnical environments Jainism or the elements of the cult and those philosophic conceptions which lay at the basis of the faith of the Jains arose and developed, has not been elaborated so far.

    It is possible only to surmise approximately which elements of spiritual culture of non-Aryan peoples penetrated into the new philosophic systems and religions, shaping themselves in India, in the first half of the first millennium B.C. and to attempt to bring those elements to light by the method of counter-posing them to those elements, which were characteristic of the Vedic (i.e. Aryan) society.

    There are at least eight features which distinguish Jainism from Vedic religion and Brahmanism. Those features are so much substantial that they do not afford any possibility of regarding Jainism as a sect of Brahmanism or its some other product. These features can be reduced to the following:

    (1) Jainism rejects holiness of Veda.

    (2) Stands against the dogma that gods are the main objects of worship.

    (3) Rejects bloody sacrifices and a number of other elements of Brahmanic ritual.

    (4) Does not recognise Varna-Caste System-of the Brahmanic society.

    (5) Prescribes defence of other’s life.

    (6) Prescribes asceticism.

    (7) Prescribes nudity at the time of ritual.

    (8) Allows women monkhood, learning of holy books etc.

    At the same time, it must not be forgotten that the philosophy of Upanishads which developed within the bounds of Vedic faiths or more probably, on the basis of several Vedic doctrines, accepting non-Brahamanic (and sometimes directly ant-Brahmanic) character rendered significant influence on Jainism (as also on Buddhism and Bhagvatism). In particular, we have in mind the conception that man can directly turn to God (to the Absolute), can achieve salvation by his own deeds and thoughts without the medium of Brahmin-priest without numerous sacrifices or offerings.

    The basic philosophic conception, on the basis of which all the anti-Brahmanic teachings developed on the so-called outskirts of the Vedic world lies precisely in this fact.

    It is also possible to assume that the Upanishadis, although included in Vedic literature, adopted a number of elements of non-Brahmanic i.e. in the main, non-Aryan cults.
    ,

    • Sindhus

      But, most importantly, Jains do not consider that their God is the only God in this world and all other Gods are evil.

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, sometime back you had reminded me to stick to the topic of ‘Did the Vedas get written…..’ however that doesn’t seem to prevent you from jumping to Shudras / Dalits and to Jainism not being a part of Hinduism. From all the replies that I gave to your old stale Communist propoganda, you could just pick out this, that Jains are not Hindus.
      The problem is that when you choose to copy and paste something and don’t even bother to read it, it clearly shows that your mind is working like a robot. You are being fed instructions by your Commie / Muslim / Christian instructor and you are just following orders without even bothering to reply.
      Now, look at the post you have sent out:

      ‘At the same time, it must not be forgotten that the philosophy of Upanishads which developed within the bounds of Vedic faiths or more probably, on the basis of several Vedic doctrines, accepting non-Brahamanic (and sometimes directly ant-Brahmanic) character rendered significant influence on Jainism (as also on Buddhism and Bhagvatism). In particular, we have in mind the conception that man can directly turn to God (to the Absolute), can achieve salvation by his own deeds and thoughts without the medium of Brahmin-priest without numerous sacrifices or offerings’

      So, the Upanishads influenced Jainism. That is what even your Mr Guseva says. And yet you are claiming that Jains reject Vedas. Since you are so lazy to even read what you posted and which I have pasted over here, read ‘philosophy of Upanishads which developed within the bounds of Vedic faiths…..’ Need I add more

      Of course, your Mr Guseva falls in the same trap set by the British and Commies of equating Hinduism with Brahminism.

      So much for that, from the 8 points that he has said which distinguishes Jainism from Hinduism, point numbers 3, 5, 6 and 8 clearly show the writers lack of knowledge about Hinduism. Even Hinduism accepts all of that. About the other points mentioned, some of them I can acknowledge but except for point number 2, it is not as if they are the cardinal principles of Jainism. I already told you yesterday that Jainism does veer towards atheism, but so what? Charvak Muni was atheistic but he is still considered as HIndu.

      My friend, you are attempting to achieve PhD status without even knowing the ABC of HInduism.

      Now more on the Jains not being Hindu part, of course, there are vested interests today who seek to seperate themselves from Hinduism. But most Jains do not consider themselves non-different from HIndu. Of course that is not to deny that they are a different sect but within the umbrella of Hindu Dharma.

      Many great Jain authorities and munis have never denied their Hinduness. Acharya Tulsi said, “In a Hindu family, one member can be a Vaishnavite, another an Arya Samaji and yet another a Jain, all belonging to Hindu society”

      Another Jain Muni, Anuvarta Anushasta Ganadhipati Acharya pointed out that Jainism is an inseparable part of Hinduism, even though it believes in a different way of worship, follows distinct samskâras and has its own spiritual books.

      And Sadhvi Dr. Sadhana, who leads the Acharya Sushil Kumar Ashram in Delhi, asserted that the Jains and the other Hindus are the inheritors of a common heritage.

      So much for Jains not following castes. Are you even aware that a Jain Agarwal family will ony fix an arranged marriage of their child with a Hindu Agarwal, not with a Jain Oswal. Gujarati Jains will never marry with a Marwari Jain.

      Besides that, in most Jain weddings, Brahmins must officiate. Of course they are called as Jain Brahmins, that is those Brahmins who believe in Jainism, but mind you they are called Brahmins. So much for your writer’s claim of anti-Brahminism. And wait here, it gets even worse, believe it or not many Jains have no problem if a Hindu Brahmin officiates in a Jain wedding!!!

      People like you and Cynical who sit in air conditioned cabins and take in all the crap that your Marxist ‘professors’ shout, know nothing at all. Ever been to Jain temples. Most of them will have Ganesh. Most of them will have Saraswati. The Oswal Jain community claims its origins from the town of Osian where not just Hindu and Jain temples exist side by side, but also Hindu deities and Jain deities can be found in each of the shrines. The most exquisite Ranakpur temples in Rajasthan also contain a beautiful Surya temple. Mount Girnar is a famous pilgrimage place for Jains and also for Hindus. The list is never ending

      Besides that, are you even aware that the 1st Tirthankar of the Jains, Rishabh Dev, is also worshipped as an incarnation of Lord Vishnu.

      Shall I go on? There are temples in Karnataka where Jain priests are trustees of Hindu temples and vice versa

      So as I have told you before, before you speak out, inhale, think of what you are speaking, and only then exhale. HIndus are sick and tired, I repeat absolutely sick and tired of characters like you.

  73. sunil

    Shlok- I never told you to stick on some topic, whatever issues arise reference came which diverted the topic , any way.even i will not ask you , for your jumping to Nalanda.You also not reading the the name properly, its Mrs Guseva and not Mr Guseva.ok .thats not the big issue.
    its not matter point 1, or point 8, reference is given that vedas are rejected by Jainism and Buddhism,its matter that Jainism opposed and rejected vedas, thats all, and there are many reference on Jainism site. need not to give here.
    now about the influence of upnishads, then according to Jainism from 1st tirthankar to Mahahvir all these are composed by Jain munis and not by brahmins/aryans, also having the same opinions Jainism as you have here about hinduism.
    here I want ti clear one confusion of all people(also you, as you said atheistc Charvak was hindu.
    here is something about word hindu from one of the hindu site

    The word Hindu is very much misunderstood and misused. Many people have no idea how the word originated. In India, some politicians use the the words Hindu and Hindutva with communal overtones either to promote or oppose some ideology or party. To the rest of the world, Hindu and Hinduism refer to a set of people belonging to definite religious system.

    The fact is that the BOTH the words “Hindu” and “India” have foreign origin. The word “Hindu” is neither a Sanskrit word nor is this word found in any of the native dialects and languages of India. It should be noted that “Hindu” is NOT a religious word at all. There is no reference of the word “hindu” in the Ancient Vedic Scriptures.

    It is said that the Persians used to refer to the Indus river as Sindhu. Indus is a major river which flows partly in India and partly in Pakistan. However, the Persians could not pronounce the letter “S” correctly in their native tongue and mispronounced it as “H.” Thus, for the ancient Persians, the word “Sindhu” became “Hindu.” The ancient Persian Cuneiform inscriptions and the Zend Avesta refer to the word “Hindu” as a geographic name rather than a religious name. When the Persian King Darious 1 extended his empire up to the borders of the Indian subcontinent in 517 BC, some people of the Indian subcontinent became part of his empire and army. Thus for a very long time the ancient Persians referred to these people as “Hindus”.

    Again someone (?som) here was arising the issue about the sankrit is the oldest language and pujas in sanskrit were performed in hindu temples that time,I would like to know which temples he talking about?
    as per our history the first religious construction started in Mauryan dynasty (Ashoka) and that was also in the form of stupa, silalekh (stone writings) stambha and thses constuctions refered to buddhism but not the hindu temples.(then which was the first hindu temple in india?)and language of communication was pali, magdhi, ardhmagdhi. Sanskrit was never the language of communication in Indian people in any era except the aryans, forget about pujas in sanskrit in temple

    shlok-;Romila cant even speak sanskrit., sanskrit is mothertongue of all languages.
    COMEON SHLOK this is not expected from you. is it very necessary to know sanskrit to write about aryans?
    there are so many word which transfered from Indain local languages (dravidian)into Sanskrit e.g. word related to farm, instruments of farmer like krishi, (khet-in Hindi,) hal- nangar (bhartiya tatvadhyan-by V.N.Sardesai), and its quite natural when two languages comes in contact to each other it may happens . also see on net for various site , so please no ego
    Again read BUDDHA AND HIS DHAMMA about incarcination, rebirth etc. by DR B R AMBEDKAR

    .

    • cnm

      @Sunil
      “COMEON SHLOK this is not expected from you. is it very necessary to know sanskrit to write about aryans?
      there are so many word which transfered from Indain local languages (dravidian)into Sanskrit e.g. word related to farm, instruments of farmer like krishi, (khet-in Hindi,) hal- nangar (bhartiya tatvadhyan-by V.N.Sardesai), and its quite natural when two languages comes in contact to each other it may happens . also see on net for various site , so please no ego.”

      You say Krishi is a Dravidian word and it has been transferred from Dravidian to Sanskrit language. This your statement clearly proves that you are quite an ignorant in the matter of Sanskrit. You should know that Sanskrit is the only language in the world that has never borrowed any word from a foreign language while on the contrary all other languages have borrowed from Sanskrit. Why Sanskrit has not borrowed any word from other languages because it has never felt the necessity of that. Why because it is the only perfect language. Don’t believe? Read this article carefully and see for yourself why Sanskrit is world’s only perfect language and why it has no need to borrow word. http://www.hitxp.com/articles/sanskrit-lessons/sanskrit-lesson-1-secret-science-sacred-sanskrit/

      • cnm

        @Sunil

        It seems You have a great deal of misconception regarding these two words. You should have no problem with words like Hinduism or Hindu or India. They are synonymous with Sanatana Dharma and its followers and their revered motherland. Besides, if we the followers of Sanatana Dharama find them fairly comfortable and dignified there is no reason why they will stick in your gullet? Also, by substituting Hindu for Sanatana Dharma or for that matter India for Bharatvarsha there takes place no change in the tone and tenor of the debate between us that still revolves around Sanskrit, Arya-Dravid and many such bogus issues so dear to Marxists like you and which the Marxists use to denigrate Hindus. Anyway, read this article that will give you a fair idea how the word Hindu the Persian equivalent of Sinhfu, once upon a time used as derogatorily against the Sanatan Dharmis assumed glory. Link : http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples2/app3.htm

    • Shlok

      @Sunil, about your comments about Jainism, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. As usual, in your hatred attempt to denigrate Hinduism at all costs, you speak a lot of mumbo jumbo which doesn’t make sense. Yesterday, you sent me an article supposedly to show that Jainism is distinct from Hinduism but in that article itself, the author concedes that the Upanishads, which developed within Vedic faith, influenced Jainism. So really, I have no time to hear your or your source’s contradictory claims. As far as the truth is concerned, Jain Dharma is a part of Hindu Dharma. Chapter close.
      Origin of word Hindu, so? If you call Bharat as India, does it mean it is being referred to another country? Original name of Hindu Dharma is Sanatan Dharma or just Dharma. The orthodox definition is also Vedic Dharma. So irrespective of what the actual name may have been, the definition of the word Hindu today is synonymous with Vedic Dharma. Chapter close.
      Listen, I have already mentioned to you that we do not believe, repeat do not believe that Indian history began with the Mauryas or even before that, with the Nandas. Yes we consider Ramayana and Mahabharat to have actually occurred. You may run into the laps of Romila Thapar and take her shelter that they did not happen. I don’t care. We don’t care. No Hindus care. Crap brains produce nonsense. So what you are claiming is typical Marxist / secular crap. We are not interested in that. As far as oldest temples are concerned, there were even 5,000 year old temples but they were all destroyed by the barbaric invaders. Currently, the Shiva temple at Gudimallam near Tirupathi in Andhra Pradesh is considered as the oldest HIndu temple as it has a Linga dated from 1st century BC. However, even if we discount the milions of temples destroyed by the Muslims and Christians, even many existing temples in the country claim an age of thousands of years, but your secular masters don’t accept it. Again, none of us care. You can believe in your nonsense. Ignorance is bliss.
      Can you be so stupid, so naive and so ignorant to say that one doesn’t need to know Sanskrit to translate Sanskrit scriptures???
      I am sorry, we do not accept that Tamil words exist in Sanskrit. On the other hand, please check this link http://sanskritroots.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/sanskritwordsintamil_v3.pdf
      Of course Dravidian friendly ‘intellectuals’ do not accept it. However, do we believe in their crap? No sir, we don’t. Tamil is the most important ancient language of Bharat Desh after Sanskrit.
      If you are just aiming to tell me typical Marxist and Dravidian beliefs, you better not waste them. All of us are aware of it. But sorry sir,they are not true. Chapter close, vishay samaapt

      • S

        Well replied Shlok ! This chap is not aware that most of the European languages, about 250, originated from Sanskrit, and this is not said by any Hindu linguist, but acknowledged by European scholars.

    • Jaipal

      @Sunil,

      The word Hindu is actually Sanskrit in origin. There are references
      to the word Hindu in Sanskrit literature. So you are mistaken.
      Hindu is derived from the Sanskrit word Sindhu, therfore it is of Indian
      origin. There is no proof that the Persians had difficulty in
      pronouncing words beginning with “S” sound. If that were really
      the case, then Persian language would not have had any words
      beginning with an “S” sound. But that is not the case in reality.

      In more olden tiimes, Hindus called themselves “Arya” which is also
      found in Sanskrit scriptures like Vedas ect. The olden name
      for Hinduism is Dharma or Sanathana Dharma.

      So you are wrong.

  74. Sundar

    But, could any one tell this world that manuscripts of vedas _ oldest scripts are available with whom and how old is that?

  75. Sarcasm

    Vedas was written exactly in 1500 B.C because Asko Parpola and Max Mueller said so. They went back to 1500 B.C in a time machine and lived in the Sapta Sindhu region which had White skinned people with blonde hair and blue eyes. Even Romila Thapar went back in a time machine exactly to 1500 B.C. Krishna, Shiva are all Germanic Aryan Gods because they were White initially but turned dark due to the intense heat of the tropical and sub tropical climate of India. We Aryans refuse to believe that Shiva is the first God of India. Shiva looked dark skinned n origin but modern Shiva deserves to be White skin or else Bollywood would look like fools without make up and plastic surgery.

  76. Sarcasm

    We Indians hate Aryans but we want to look like them. Aryans defended the Indian subcontinent from barbarian Scythian, Kushan, Arabic, Persian, Turk and Mongolian Invaders. Many Rajputs were White Skinned Aryans. Even Sikhs were white skinned. Gurkhas were also white skinned even though they looked Mongoloid in origin. Aryans were a race even though we know that genetically there’s no such thing as an Aryan race. saraswati who gets entertained by facts is an expert when it comes to Aryans. Aryan this, Aryan that. Even Paramatman is an Aryan. Paramatma was created by an Aryan. Paramatman didn’t create humans. Humans created Paramatma. Paramatma didn’t create the universe. According to the “Aryan Invasion Theorists” Aryan created the Universe.

  77. Hi friends, I have gone through all the arguments supporting and speaking against the Aryan-Dravidian theory which is an after thought of the British for the purpose of dividing the Indians on racial dogma.No Tamil or Sanskrit literature speaks about the existence of these races. the word Aryan used in Sanskrit denotes the noble people having knowledge of Vedas and Dravidian means those who were driven away.Even scholars differ in dating most of the Sanskrit works, all of them are of the opinion that Vedas were transmitted through oral tradition for thousands of years since no Sanskrit script was invented. The very word Sanskrit means “artificially created literary language” as opposed to Vedic language which contains numerous Dravidian words of Tamil Origins like meen, neer, etc.
    Hence dating of Indian literary works still pose many problems since Indians do not know anything about writing history whereas Europeans were lucky in having Herodotus as an historian.
    One this is certain if Indus valley civilisation belongs to third millenium BC then dating of Vedans and other sanskrit literature is to be placed after 1000 BC or else IV civilisation to be pushed back to a few thousand years as in the Egyptian civilisation. then a correct date for all the ancient works could be ascertained.

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